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Old September 24th, 2011, 11:55 PM
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Speedy99 Speedy99 is offline
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Default Biloxi Isle going H17

Was playing at the Isle in Biloxi and the dealer stated they where getting new felts on October 15 because they are going from S17 to H17
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Old September 25th, 2011, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Speedy99 View Post
Was playing at the Isle in Biloxi and the dealer stated they where getting new felts on October 15 because they are going from S17 to H17
All but hi-limit rooms will be hit 17. This is really signalling the end of BJ as a game that can be somewhat easily beaten, and will wash out more wanna-be counters than anything ever before.

The curtain is coming down, little things here and there, and then real big things like h-17, once reserved for only sd games, now on CSM and multi deck and 6.5.

For those who care to argue the fact, look at the math between h-17 and s-17.

CP
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Old September 25th, 2011, 11:43 AM
cucuso4 cucuso4 is offline
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Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
All but hi-limit rooms will be hit 17. This is really signalling the end of BJ as a game that can be somewhat easily beaten, and will wash out more wanna-be counters than anything ever before.

The curtain is coming down, little things here and there, and then real big things like h-17, once reserved for only sd games, now on CSM and multi deck and 6.5.

For those who care to argue the fact, look at the math between h-17 and s-17.

CP
What reason I had to make the 8 hour drive to the coast is quickly going away. The last time I was at the Isle the pen on 4D had worsened; JOB QQ was MIA; and SD was RO5 or 4 if a lot of cards had been dealt. Just a couple of decent BJ opportunities remain; couple of progressives (if you are lucky enough to be there when positive); and a couple of other AP opportunities here and there.

Need to look close at expenses to see if it's worth the trip.
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Old September 25th, 2011, 03:05 PM
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The more these casinos "tighten up" the less gamblers will play, with the less they play casinos will become more desperate and "tweak it up" a notch, the more the casinos "tweak it up" a notch the more gamblers will become discouraged and play less or stop playing, seeing the futility of it all. Most gamblers are not going to go with, "Gee, I should bring more money since the house has increased the odds in their favor so now I have to bring more money to play the same period of time". They are going to bring the same amount of money and play less is all. They are going to lose more quickly and therefore be more discouraged to come back any time soon, if anything.

At the point that NOBODY wins EVER other than the casino is when it's no longer "entertainment" for the casino patrons. Jacking up HA in hopes of this causing gamblers to spend more money will have the opposite effect. The "beancounters" don't seem to realize that your typical gambler is not going to bring more money to the casino to compensate for increased HA. They will merely lose their money faster, which has a detrimental psychological effect on the gambler making them think that it's impossible to win at all... ever.

In discussions with people playing in the casinos I've heard about this first hand. I was talking to a woman that plays slots and videopoker sometime back and she talked at length about her personal gambling experiences. She used to have the premier player's card for the casino, play often at higher denominations, etc. The casino adorned her with offers, gifts and the works and she claims to have actually won here and there although she still took a huge loss in the overall. She noticed that over a few years that she was winning less and losing more often, so she backed down from spending as much gradually, describing her play.

Now the big picture on what happened with this woman. She was a premier player dropping about $20,000.00 a year on gambling. She was happy because she won once in a while and was lavished in amenities. She noticed that she was winning less often and then noticed that (on statements from the casino) that she lost $40,000 for the year one year recently, with the same amount of money played for roughly the same amount of time spent at the casino. Now she plays low denomination (5 cents & 25 cents) video poker, has the lowest level player's card, puts very little into the machines since she KNOWS FOR A FACT that she will lose and just doesn't seem to ever win once in a while like she used to and questions to herself and others why she plays at all. She has dropped down to visiting the casino once a month with $200.00 and is thinking of cutting that out also since it's so discouraging and things are just "not what they used to be" for her. I don't know much about those machines but I guess they replaced enough machines with newer machines that did a harder "gouge" to cause this woman to lose all faith that she might win a little something back once in a great while? In any case, she is seeing futility in what was once great fun for her.

Good job you idiot bean-counters! You lost this woman who was a happy gambler spending a lot of money, that's for sure. Hike up that HA some more so you can have an empty casino you dipsh*ts!hahahaa Word of mouth travels a long way these days also. If you make it impossible for anyone at all to win no one will play. Add H17 to increase HA by a fifth of a percentage point and maybe no one is going to notice? They are going to notice and you are shooting for a short-term gain that guarantees long term losses.

Last edited by Tarzan; September 25th, 2011 at 03:17 PM.
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Old September 25th, 2011, 04:21 PM
tthree tthree is offline
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Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
The more these casinos "tighten up" the less gamblers will play, with the less they play casinos will become more desperate and "tweak it up" a notch, the more the casinos "tweak it up" a notch the more gamblers will become discouraged and play less or stop playing, seeing the futility of it all. Most gamblers are not going to go with, "Gee, I should bring more money since the house has increased the odds in their favor so now I have to bring more money to play the same period of time". They are going to bring the same amount of money and play less is all. They are going to lose more quickly and therefore be more discouraged to come back any time soon, if anything.

At the point that NOBODY wins EVER other than the casino is when it's no longer "entertainment" for the casino patrons. Jacking up HA in hopes of this causing gamblers to spend more money will have the opposite effect. The "beancounters" don't seem to realize that your typical gambler is not going to bring more money to the casino to compensate for increased HA. They will merely lose their money faster, which has a detrimental psychological effect on the gambler making them think that it's impossible to win at all... ever.

In discussions with people playing in the casinos I've heard about this first hand. I was talking to a woman that plays slots and videopoker sometime back and she talked at length about her personal gambling experiences. She used to have the premier player's card for the casino, play often at higher denominations, etc. The casino adorned her with offers, gifts and the works and she claims to have actually won here and there although she still took a huge loss in the overall. She noticed that over a few years that she was winning less and losing more often, so she backed down from spending as much gradually, describing her play.

Now the big picture on what happened with this woman. She was a premier player dropping about $20,000.00 a year on gambling. She was happy because she won once in a while and was lavished in amenities. She noticed that she was winning less often and then noticed that (on statements from the casino) that she lost $40,000 for the year one year recently, with the same amount of money played for roughly the same amount of time spent at the casino. Now she plays low denomination (5 cents & 25 cents) video poker, has the lowest level player's card, puts very little into the machines since she KNOWS FOR A FACT that she will lose and just doesn't seem to ever win once in a while like she used to and questions to herself and others why she plays at all. She has dropped down to visiting the casino once a month with $200.00 and is thinking of cutting that out also since it's so discouraging and things are just "not what they used to be" for her. I don't know much about those machines but I guess they replaced enough machines with newer machines that did a harder "gouge" to cause this woman to lose all faith that she might win a little something back once in a great while? In any case, she is seeing futility in what was once great fun for her.

Good job you idiot bean-counters! You lost this woman who was a happy gambler spending a lot of money, that's for sure. Hike up that HA some more so you can have an empty casino you dipsh*ts!hahahaa Word of mouth travels a long way these days also. If you make it impossible for anyone at all to win no one will play. Add H17 to increase HA by a fifth of a percentage point and maybe no one is going to notice? They are going to notice and you are shooting for a short-term gain that guarantees long term losses.
You are so right they are burning their customer base.
  #6  
Old September 25th, 2011, 08:26 PM
ningtong88 ningtong88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
The more these casinos "tighten up" the less gamblers will play, with the less they play casinos will become more desperate and "tweak it up" a notch, the more the casinos "tweak it up" a notch the more gamblers will become discouraged and play less or stop playing, seeing the futility of it all. Most gamblers are not going to go with, "Gee, I should bring more money since the house has increased the odds in their favor so now I have to bring more money to play the same period of time". They are going to bring the same amount of money and play less is all. They are going to lose more quickly and therefore be more discouraged to come back any time soon, if anything.

At the point that NOBODY wins EVER other than the casino is when it's no longer "entertainment" for the casino patrons. Jacking up HA in hopes of this causing gamblers to spend more money will have the opposite effect. The "beancounters" don't seem to realize that your typical gambler is not going to bring more money to the casino to compensate for increased HA. They will merely lose their money faster, which has a detrimental psychological effect on the gambler making them think that it's impossible to win at all... ever.

In discussions with people playing in the casinos I've heard about this first hand. I was talking to a woman that plays slots and videopoker sometime back and she talked at length about her personal gambling experiences. She used to have the premier player's card for the casino, play often at higher denominations, etc. The casino adorned her with offers, gifts and the works and she claims to have actually won here and there although she still took a huge loss in the overall. She noticed that over a few years that she was winning less and losing more often, so she backed down from spending as much gradually, describing her play.

Now the big picture on what happened with this woman. She was a premier player dropping about $20,000.00 a year on gambling. She was happy because she won once in a while and was lavished in amenities. She noticed that she was winning less often and then noticed that (on statements from the casino) that she lost $40,000 for the year one year recently, with the same amount of money played for roughly the same amount of time spent at the casino. Now she plays low denomination (5 cents & 25 cents) video poker, has the lowest level player's card, puts very little into the machines since she KNOWS FOR A FACT that she will lose and just doesn't seem to ever win once in a while like she used to and questions to herself and others why she plays at all. She has dropped down to visiting the casino once a month with $200.00 and is thinking of cutting that out also since it's so discouraging and things are just "not what they used to be" for her. I don't know much about those machines but I guess they replaced enough machines with newer machines that did a harder "gouge" to cause this woman to lose all faith that she might win a little something back once in a great while? In any case, she is seeing futility in what was once great fun for her.

Good job you idiot bean-counters! You lost this woman who was a happy gambler spending a lot of money, that's for sure. Hike up that HA some more so you can have an empty casino you dipsh*ts!hahahaa Word of mouth travels a long way these days also. If you make it impossible for anyone at all to win no one will play. Add H17 to increase HA by a fifth of a percentage point and maybe no one is going to notice? They are going to notice and you are shooting for a short-term gain that guarantees long term losses.
I wish you are right but there will be always people think gambling is an entertianment and also people hoping their lives could be changed if they hit that jackpot and most of them know that the chance of hitting that jackpot is slimer than getting hit by lightening, so people won't stop going to casinos. The casinos around me are pretty much all H17 except for HL rooms, and tables are still all packed. Simply increase the HE will not hurt their profit.
  #7  
Old September 26th, 2011, 09:47 AM
Sucker Sucker is offline
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Originally Posted by ningtong88 View Post
I wish you are right but there will be always people think gambling is an entertianment
Flash is 100% correct. And you are also correct. But if and when the patronage drops off by even as little as 5%; that makes a HUGE dent in the casinos bottom line.

What's going on is pretty much a result of the Peter Principal. Some idiot thinks up a way to temporarily increase profits; he gets a promotion because of it; and when the customer base finally DOES fall off on account of this new policy; the idiot gets off scot free. His REPLACEMENT somehow gets the blame!

If no one EVER wins, there will soon be NO casinos at ALL.

Last edited by Sucker; September 26th, 2011 at 09:50 AM. Reason: typo
  #8  
Old October 12th, 2011, 08:40 PM
ringlejames ringlejames is offline
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I believe they will just go to the casinos more often in hopes of chasing that illusive big cash out that gamblers love. It is the feeling of that adreniline. That you don't know whats going to happen feeling that gamblers love. Not the rules them selves.

Look at the slots, HA is as high as 17% on the penny slots. Yet slots, I do believe, make up for 60+% all the casinos bottom line. Yet there are still people who try to employ advantage play in slots and electronic games such as video poker and wat not. There may be a little less serious counters overall. Or there will be more counters introducing advantage play techniques or better counting systems. The loss of some wannabe counters could bring a surcharge on dealer tips from all games.

They could give out less free drinks or make the time it takes for a cocktail waitress to reach the table a little longer.

All in all I think the addition of h17 in casinos could actually bring more profit to the casinos in ways that we just dont understand.

The amount of truly talented counters is so small. The addition of the h17 for serious counters that actually make money will just FORCE them to learn something such as ace sequencing, shuffle tracking, hole carding and so on.

Now lets talk about the one that think they know how to count. These people always disregard rules and house advantage and dont really commit to learning the completely. They are really just the average gambler looking for that feeling whither they know it or not.

Also the real gamblers will just push mountains of more money in the casinos pockets because they have a problem they cant control. Rules such as h17 and so on have no effect them. I would like to say that more than 90% of them dont even know and could never understand the mathematical significance of such rules.

To say that rules of a game decide whether or not the casinos will stay in business is not even an opinion. It isn't even a possibility. The size of the casino, casino personnel and the amount of free comps maybe effected. But casinos are used to there profits and they will do anything to protect them. They are not going to enforce a rule to a game unless they have contingencies in place to safe guard there future as a business
  #9  
Old October 18th, 2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
All but hi-limit rooms will be hit 17. This is really signalling the end of BJ as a game that can be somewhat easily beaten, and will wash out more wanna-be counters than anything ever before.

The curtain is coming down, little things here and there, and then real big things like h-17, once reserved for only sd games, now on CSM and multi deck and 6.5.

For those who care to argue the fact, look at the math between h-17 and s-17.

CP
I pretty much agree with this and the other views expressed in this interesting thread. Blackjack is no longer the game analyzed by Stanford Wong and Ken Uston and others years ago.
One point not mentioned enough is that perhaps all future AP gamblers will always be BIG players. S17 is still offered in some high-limit rooms and these big players also get casino credit and even a loss rebate. It was a combination of these factors that enabled a blackjack expert to crush the high-limit games in Jersey a few months ago.
  #10  
Old November 14th, 2011, 07:21 PM
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Biloxi Isle still S17 on all tables.
 

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