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  #171  
Old September 11th, 2011, 07:58 PM
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I had no idea that Romans and Chinese had same sex marriage in just the same way as they had heterosexual marriage.
They didn't. Sparta had a bit of that, pairing up warriors and all that. Rome did not, in fact Rome created the concept of monogamous marriage that we have today. In Asia in general homosexuality is traditionally considered repugnant and sub-human and the Chinese would never have a ritual honoring it.

It's a ridiculous argument to begin with. In the 19th century we proved to the Mormons we reserve the right as a society to define what marriage is. We repeated it in the 60's when the hippies thought they could have group marriages. If two homosexuals want to have some kind of arrangement between themselves, this is a free country, they can go ahead and do it. They don't have the right to force the rest of society to modify their traditions to a-commode-date () them. If they don't like that, they should find some other country that is not a democracy and that is willing to have them come in and tell everyone else what to do.
  #172  
Old September 11th, 2011, 08:12 PM
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I had no idea that Romans and Chinese had same sex marriage in just the same way as they had heterosexual marriage. If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, I should restate it as for countless generations within the Judao-Christian tradition, of which our society is still largely a product, marriage has been the union of members of the opposite sex and has also been held as a sacred institution. The fact that one religion has problems with marrying into another religion only confirms my statement that marriage is considered a sacred thing, so much so, that different religions are scrupulous about any deviation from their norm. Also, I might add that in the Judao-Christian tradition, marriage evolved into a union between one man and one woman.

And even if I was wrong about who did and who did not treat marriage as a sacred institution, am I also wrong in believing that a large number of Americans want to maintain the sacredness of marriage as handed down to them? Why is it all right to offend them? Too much attention is put on not offending a very few, and hardly any attention on offending a very large number.

The law can be rewritten at the Federal level to guarantee equal rights and to override any law of the states, just as the Civil Rights legislation did.

As before we began this discussion, we both agree on the main thing, equal rights.
But people also believed that interracial marriage harmed the sanctity of marriage. Equal rights means equal rights. Not equal rights for white-Christian-male-heterosexuals. Equal for all. It’s too bad if bigots are offended when others get the same rights as they. Let us try to teach them what “equal” means.

Now, on your suggestion that laws be rewritten at the Federal level to guarantee equal rights and to override any law of the states, GREAT. Only, the Defense of Marriage Act does exactly the opposite. The Tea Party would never support the liberalization of fed law to override state law and guarantee equal rights to people they consider an abomination.
  #173  
Old September 11th, 2011, 08:21 PM
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To others:

The concept that an atheist would make a bad leader because he is not afraid of what will happen after death is obviously absurd. The MAFIA are a very religious group. Has this stopped them from killing people? No, they just go for absolution. The KKK lynched with abandon in the name of Christ. I missed that in his teachings. So many in wars on every side have been convinced their killing is good because god is on their side. “God is great” the 9/11 terrorists yelled as they rammed the WTC. So many believe they can kill, knowing that they will go to some paradise because they are devout.

No, an atheist must know that killing is evil and there is no god or church that will absolve him because he killed the “right people.” Studies have shown that atheists tend to be much less violent. In polls on capital punishment, most atheists believe this is wrong, because people should not kill. Many religious people don’t think it matters, as the bad will go to hell and the good to heaven. In their mind, “No harm, no foul.”

There is a popular saying among U.S. members of the military, in particular the Marines, Rangers, and Special Forces: "Kill'em all and let God sort'em out." This comes from Papal legate Arnuad-Amaury to whom, in the Crusades, was attributed “Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.” "Kill them all! Surely the Lord discerns which ones are his". Indeed, 20,000 people in the city were slaughtered with no respect to sex or age or which were enemies and which friends. No harm no foul, in their mind.

Death is all bad. I think it is too bad that Hitler killed himself or that his cronies were hung. They should have sat in prison and watched Europe flourish, while serving as example of evil.

No, I want a leader that knows that death is bad. That the dead won’t be sorted out in heaven, and that no god is telling him it is OK to kill. Remember, George Bush told the Saudis that god told him to invade Iraq.
If life isn't sacred, why is death bad? A leader who has absolutely nothing but his power and glorification in his earthly life to look forward to might not recognize the deaths of others being bad, but only his own death. A Christian might believe he will be absolved in his afterlife for his sin, but that's a little better than someone who believes there is no one to absolve him and nothing to be absolved for, no?

I don't believe death is bad. The same biological processes that bring about death are also responsible for sustaining my life, and I bless them. And I'm glad the Nazis were executed. They remain as an example of evil, and their execution as an example of justice triumphing over evil.
  #174  
Old September 11th, 2011, 08:48 PM
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Aslan, I thought we had an interesting, enjoyable conversation. But the hate and bigotry from the sidelines is just too much. I see no reason to put up with comparisons to Hitler, ludicrous assumptions about what I must feel and believe that are completely alien to me, and extreme hate aimed at billions of people. I'll end my part of the conversation here. Perhaps another time friend.
  #175  
Old September 11th, 2011, 08:52 PM
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You have an invention in your mind of what an atheist is. I don't recognize it in any manner. You must stop lumping together people you don't like, atheists, gays, blacks, muslims, etc. You find one person you don't like and blame billions of people for his actions. Would I ever say that all Catholics are like Hitler. Of course not. And I would never lump all Christians together just because you are such a hate-filled person. Only a bigot speaks in such ways. I don't hate Christians. My GF is a Christian. You display extreme hate towards billions of people you have never met based on the tiniest flicker of empirical knowledge.
Read the thread Qfit. All you have been doing is making blanket statements and generalizations. From the Tea Party to the Religious Right just to name a couple. Here is a Gallup poll about the Tea Party demographics. Other than politics they are almost a perfect cross section of American society. Maybe now he will stop his blanket statements that are absolutely false.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/Te...erm=Politics#1
  #176  
Old September 11th, 2011, 09:16 PM
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If life isn't sacred, why is death bad? A leader who has absolutely nothing but his power and glorification in his earthly life to look forward to might not recognize the deaths of others being bad, but only his own death. A Christian might believe he will be absolved in his afterlife for his sin, but that's a little better than someone who believes there is no one to absolve him and nothing to be absolved for, no?

I don't believe death is bad. The same biological processes that bring about death are also responsible for sustaining my life, and I bless them. And I'm glad the Nazis were executed. They remain as an example of evil, and their execution as an example of justice triumphing over evil.
He totally missed your point AM. You said (to paraphrase) if you have nothing to look forward to in the afterlife you would be tempted to try to make paradise here at all costs no matter who gets hurt or dies. He took it to mean a fear of the afterlife is necessary to be a responsible leader. That is nowhere near what you said. I think maybe the atheists are more likely to lead a life that would have them hear your comment and process it to mean almost the opposite. That kind of makes your point.
  #177  
Old September 11th, 2011, 09:54 PM
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He totally missed your point AM. You said (to paraphrase) if you have nothing to look forward to in the afterlife you would be tempted to try to make paradise here at all costs no matter who gets hurt or dies. He took it to mean a fear of the afterlife is necessary to be a responsible leader. That is nowhere near what you said. I think maybe the atheists are more likely to lead a life that would have them hear your comment and process it to mean almost the opposite. That kind of makes your point.
Oh, he got it. He is being uncharacteristically disingenuous, in my opinion. That selective quoting and repetitive name-calling is a dead giveaway.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from being an atheist. It's all just a "Dark Night of the Soul" to me, nothing to be ashamed of and not in itself disreputable. It's really too sensitive a topic for me to address with logic, apparently. Most people believe as they do because of their feeeelings, which they can't always help.
  #178  
Old September 11th, 2011, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tthree View Post
Here is a Gallup poll about the Tea Party demographics. Other than politics they are almost a perfect cross section of American society. Maybe now he will stop his blanket statements that are absolutely false.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/Te...erm=Politics#1
Don't vote for any Tea Party wooden nickles! zg
  #179  
Old September 11th, 2011, 11:30 PM
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I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from being an atheist. It's all just a "Dark Night of the Soul" to me, nothing to be ashamed of and not in itself disreputable.
Then there are the 'transcendental atheists' - various assorted spiritual intellectuals, buddhists, transpersonal psychologists,
psychedelic explorers and the like. "Atheism in the name of God," my favorite philosopher Alan Watts called them. zg
  #180  
Old September 12th, 2011, 02:42 PM
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Don't vote for any Tea Party wooden nickles! zg
Ron Paul? oyvay
 

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