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  #1  
Old July 8th, 2011, 10:42 PM
blobnstuff blobnstuff is offline
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Default Australian Law regarding Card Counting and Team Play (Crown Casino)

Hi,

Thanks very much in advance, I know I'm knew here - this is a terrific resource! I've been a lurker for some time, and thought it was high time to make an account

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience or knowledge of the explicit (possibly legislative) parameters of mentally recording cards at a casino game in Australia - in other words, card counting. *EDIT*

Do Australian laws differ when operating in a team scenario, does using coordinated signals and codes constitute any legal issues?

I'd be very curious to hear anyone's knowledge - I've spent some time reading the Victorian Casino Contral Act 1991 and also read through VCGR's Approved Blackjack Rules but I'm certain there would be others out there with a deeper knowledge than I.

If you're curious to hear anything else about the situation feel free to ask, but I might leave it there for now and see if anyone has any comments on this situation.

Well, there goes my Blackjackinfo cherry, be gentle! haha

Blobnstuff

Last edited by blobnstuff; July 9th, 2011 at 07:56 AM.
  #2  
Old July 9th, 2011, 12:28 AM
MeWin$ MeWin$ is offline
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Default Im not a lawyer

Im not a lawyer but im pretty sure there is no precedent for CCing being illegal in Oz.
But it seems ur Big Player is no longer welcome, maybe time to change?
What I have experience with is pit freakouts.
Many times where a casino first learns that a cardcounter is in their midst they freakout like ze Germans are coming. Its due to their ignorance, but their reactions are so unpredictable and random.
Maybe they werent talking about ur teamate (they probably were, but dont back urselves off.) And if they wanted to hire a PI?! That just sounds like uneducated pit talk.
At any rate someone on this forum will surely provide a legally educated opinion, and if not then just do some local digging on the law, perhaps starting with google and then anonymously phoning up ur local gaming office.
As for calling a PI, why not just half-shoe, trespass, or backoff? Maybe the staff really just didnt know what to do, maybe never having dealt with this before.
I play in the boondocks and have personally seen at least four different casinos react to a cardcounter (me) for the first time, and their mixed reactions show the unpredictablility and naiveity of some casinos pit staff.
Casino #1 a dealer on his own halfshoed me while sneering at me.
Cas #2 Hilarity on this one. A ploppy i pissed off raised the alarm (guessing,btw but she happened to be right) and the pit believed her ans freaked out; at one point all eight PBs from 2 different pits were nervously hovering over my table. But, get this: they were whispering to each other so i wouldnt hear. Im thinking "Hey, guys whats with the secrecy, I know that im counting! You dont have to keep it a secret from me!" LOL too funny. And then it as soon as it started, it stopped. Within an hour, they were gone and it was business as usual. Max bet 100 at this store btw, maybe 25 an hr in EV.
The moral of the story: Again they never dealt with it before, they cant count to know for sure, and had a random reaction.
Cas #3 Half shoe but again i heard them say "we think hes counting" while whispering to the dealer about the half shoe. LOL. Again, I know im counting but theyre trying to keep their countermeasure secret from me, too funny.
I havent been back but i will. Moral again: no clue and an unpredictable reaction.
Cas 4. Halfshoe, then massive freakout by the pit manager who was a former friend. He was afraid i would bankrupt his casino. I am not making this up. I hit some pos variance just when they starting tracking me so they literally thought that i made 2500 an hr and perhaps a horde of counters were ready to descend on their casino like locusts. Again, utter ridiculousness, and max bet at this casino is 200 dollars! I go maybe once a month and they let me play, so maybe theyve calmed down. Again moral: uneducated, guessing, and an overreaction.
Cas 5: A massively intense staredown by the Casino Manager: Im thinking "Hey Asshole, im the one with the power here, dont motivate me further to want to take money from you!" Immediately after i caught a timely patch of bad luck, dropped half my bank, and a week later he was talking to me like nothing ever happened.
So you never know what a particular pit or pit crew is gonna do.
My advice is to keep playing, maybe stop for a bit, but definintely come back.
Good luck
  #3  
Old July 9th, 2011, 01:58 AM
AussiePlayer AussiePlayer is offline
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Have you ever heard of Andrew Scott? he's currently banned from every casino in Aus and runs his own Blackjack school in Melbourne. As far as I'm aware, similar to America, they can ban or half-shoe you, however it is not illegal.

I have never attempted team play myself, but KOZ1984 might have some info.

Welcome to the forum BTW.
  #4  
Old July 9th, 2011, 06:05 PM
Koz1984 Koz1984 is offline
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There is no illegality at all. If you read the VCGR's manual you may have come across a couple specific rules that, whilst not explicitly stating they're countermeasures for counting, actually are. These are...

1) That a dealer may place the cutting cut up to half way in a shoe (so you'd be half decked if spotted), 2) A PB may instruct a dealer to shuffle up at any time if s/he believes one is warranted (again, spots you counting) and 3) That you may be limited to betting the minimum ONLY (that's the BIG sign you've been done).
  #5  
Old July 10th, 2011, 04:41 AM
blobnstuff blobnstuff is offline
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Ah, I see. Yeah, I have a copy of that Blackjack Rules from the VCGR and that's exactly what I've read coming from stories and old media articles from Andrew Scott and his case against Crown at the turn of the millennia.

Thanks very much for the interesting recounts of Casino (un)awareness MeWin$ haha

And KOZ, you seem to have a little bit of a following on these boards your reputation precedes you!

I hope my query didn't seem too much like paranoia, it's just before I had done some reading myself - and before I had asked explicitly from yourselves in this thread - I had only heard anecdotally of Card Counting's legality in Australia and not really specifically knew to what (if any) extent the arm of the law really protected our camp as opposed to the casinos in this country.

Thanks very much you guys for your input
  #6  
Old October 16th, 2011, 01:51 AM
TheCleaner TheCleaner is offline
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Crown Casino is governed by the VCGR, the Liquor Licensing Act and the Casino Control Act.

Basically if you're going to count cards alone, in a group or attempt any sort of advantage play, the rules of the game will allow Crown to restrict your bets, and if you ignore it, they'll kick you out, have snapshots of you and your mates already from the Eye and this information will be passed on to any other Casino worldwide who'd be interested in knowing. Chances are they already know you and what you're doing and are just looking for that one chance you slip up.

Don't underestimate the cameras or the staff.

Also, if your hustle is still too good for them to prove you with their cameras. Just remember, the Liquor Licensing Act.... they'll just use that against you.

However, there are no laws regarding the use of psychic power. Why not recruit one to help you in your endeavour to beat the Casino....
  #7  
Old October 16th, 2011, 06:09 PM
Roswell Crash Survivor's Avatar
Roswell Crash Survivor Roswell Crash Survivor is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCleaner View Post
However, there are no laws regarding the use of psychic power. Why not recruit one to help you in your endeavour to beat the casino....
This post made me want to watch the Blackjack scene from 'Next' again.
  #8  
Old October 17th, 2011, 01:12 AM
Koz1984 Koz1984 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCleaner View Post
Crown Casino is governed by the VCGR, the Liquor Licensing Act and the Casino Control Act.

Basically if you're going to count cards alone, in a group or attempt any sort of advantage play, the rules of the game will allow Crown to restrict your bets, and if you ignore it, they'll kick you out, have snapshots of you and your mates already from the Eye and this information will be passed on to any other Casino worldwide who'd be interested in knowing. Chances are they already know you and what you're doing and are just looking for that one chance you slip up.

Don't underestimate the cameras or the staff.

Also, if your hustle is still too good for them to prove you with their cameras. Just remember, the Liquor Licensing Act.... they'll just use that against you.

However, there are no laws regarding the use of psychic power. Why not recruit one to help you in your endeavour to beat the Casino....
I don't think Crown is that up to speed. I've spoken to ONE guy who has been min. bet restricted, and that was about 5 years ago. Crown is too big a place to care about anyone grinding away at their BJ tables. I know a team that took them for considerable cash recently over the course of a week or two, they probably didn't know what hit them. Crown is very lax in their approach to such stuff. They've got whales betting six figure bets to worry about, not guys pushing out a few hundred at TC+5.
  #9  
Old October 20th, 2011, 12:28 AM
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Ferretnparrot Ferretnparrot is offline
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I dont know why im reading the australia post section... but...

If the law limits the casino to move the cut card UPTO ONE HALF of the shoe, you might really have some leverage if they say missed by 1/4 deck, you could count the cards 1 by one for QUANTITY untill the shuffle, and then WHAM!!! call the gaming authority!!! How dare they cut off over 1/2 of the shoe!

Or maybe, if during the last hand of play, you could argue the whole hand void if the cut card came out before half the shoe had passed. Obviously you would only argue if it was -EV
 

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