Hard 17

[blackjacktilt]

Originally Posted by Freightman

I took as you being hard headed and stubborn, refusing to acknowledge the obvious, and without basic understanding of the surrender principle. If these observations are in fact correct, then it would be my recommendation you invest your bankroll with a financial planner as I don't believe this game is for you.

Well Mr. Freightman, I see what you are saying and could see why you would think so. Fact is, you don't know me. I can assure you I am more than capable, but would never attempt to belittle someone with knowledge I have or may think I have. Maybe I asked the question the wrong way, or maybe you can't give me the answer I'm looking for. If all you can give is a general statement like you gave, thanks for your answer, I appreciate it and my response was in no way meant to disrespect you. I will approach others via PM who I think can help to avoid misunderstandings like this one.

[Canceler]

Originally Posted by blackjacktilt

Maybe I asked the question the wrong way...

Anytime you say you don't believe BS you're opening yourself up to a certain amount of harassment.

You could just look at EV tables instead of running a sim.

[blackjacktilt]

Originally Posted by Canceler

Anytime you say you don't believe BS you're opening yourself up to a certain amount of harassment.

You could just look at EV tables instead of running a sim.

Yeah thanks it's not that I meant I was going against BS, I've been counting long enough to know where my advantage is. Thanks for the advice, I will check that link out. I received a PM explaining just what I was looking for.

[IcyM]

Just 2 cents here; Wong says to surrender 17 vs dealer A in H17 games. That's just 1 variation of rules, so I'm not sure how many different rules you'd want to consider if you do decide to sim 100k hands. If any1 does feel free to post results.

[Sucker]

Originally Posted by Freightman

There is no surrender index for 17 v 10. There is a reason for it. Grit your teeth and stand.

Originally Posted by Freightman

Don't ask for advice and then come back with some assinine retort.

The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question. Just because YOU were too lazy to learn all of the indices for YOUR system is no reason to call him "asinine".

There IS a surrender index index for 17 v A, 17 v 10, 17 v 9, and even 17 v 8. Most of the time they're not included in level 1 counting systems, but they do exist. If you're using a multilevel count, depending upon WHICH system you are using (and also whether or not your system is ace-reckoned) the index numbers will be different. For example; with an ace-reckoned Hi-Lo system it's correct to surrender 17 v 10 at a count of +16 or higher (Remember, we're talking about late surrender here).

[Sucker]

Originally Posted by FLASH1296

If you win a hand over 25% of the time you do not surrender at a neutral count.
For your hard 17 over 75% of the time is extremely unlikely.

In a nutshell. But if you're figuring it this way, don't forget to count your pushes as half a win!

[blackjacktilt]

Originally Posted by Sucker

The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question. Just because YOU were too lazy to learn all of the indices for YOUR system is no reason to call him "asinine".

There IS a surrender index index for 17 v A, 17 v 10, 17 v 9, and even 17 v 8. Most of the time they're not included in level 1 counting systems, but they do exist. If you're using a multilevel count, depending upon WHICH system you are using (and also whether or not your system is ace-reckoned) the index numbers will be different. For example; with an ace-reckoned Hi-Lo system it's correct to surrender 17 v 10 at a count of +16 or higher (Remember, we're talking about late surrender here).

Thanks, I use the simple hi-lo with no side counts. I am learning the hard way to just ask specific people certain questions. Thanks again, much appreciated.

[Freightman]

Originally Posted by Sucker

The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question. Just because YOU were too lazy to learn all of the indices for YOUR system is no reason to call him "asinine".

There IS a surrender index index for 17 v A, 17 v 10, 17 v 9, and even 17 v 8. Most of the time they're not included in level 1 counting systems, but they do exist. If you're using a multilevel count, depending upon WHICH system you are using (and also whether or not your system is ace-reckoned) the index numbers will be different. For example; with an ace-reckoned Hi-Lo system it's correct to surrender 17 v 10 at a count of +16 or higher (Remember, we're talking about late surrender here).

You happen to be right - there is actually an index for everything - however, lets not get sidetracked by the ridiculous minutae of some indexes, like spilitting 10's v 2, surrendering 17 v 10, though I will wait with baited breath for my next 17 v 10 with TC17 and surrender with enthusiasm.

The op is obviously a newbie, and did in fact ask a very simple and very legitimate question. 17 v 10 is not a promising situation. My answer of grit your teeth means exactly that - pass and hope for the best - as it is your best long term result - so why did I pounce on him?. Lets have a look at his answer.

"I think gritting my teeth and standing would be the ignorant way to go about it ..........Come on, all these great minds and you're telling me there is no index for this type of play. There has to be. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can think outside the box "

The purpose of these forums, among other things is to learn. If the op is going to ask for advice, which he did, get it, which he got, he should not retort in the manner which he did (unless he can justify it - which he can't) - which was insulting - Now seriously, I would not have wasted my time responding to his question had I known he would have responded with an assinine retort - there - I said it again.

BTW your TC 17 is also correct for halves, which I use, and I might add, with a high degree of effectiveness.

[blackjacktilt]

Originally Posted by Freightman

You happen to be right - there is actually an index for everything - however, lets not get sidetracked by the ridiculous minutae of some indexes, like spilitting 10's v 2, surrendering 17 v 10, though I will wait with baited breath for my next 17 v 10 with TC17 and surrender with enthusiasm.

The op is obviously a newbie, and did in fact ask a very simple and very legitimate question. 17 v 10 is not a promising situation. My answer of grit your teeth means exactly that - pass and hope for the best - as it is your best long term result - so why did I pounce on him?. Lets have a look at his answer.

"I think gritting my teeth and standing would be the ignorant way to go about it ..........Come on, all these great minds and you're telling me there is no index for this type of play. There has to be. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can think outside the box "

The purpose of these forums, among other things is to learn. If the op is going to ask for advice, which he did, get it, which he got, he should not retort in the manner which he did (unless he can justify it - which he can't) - which was insulting - Now seriously, I would not have wasted my time responding to his question had I known he would have responded with an assinine retort - there - I said it again.

BTW your TC 17 is also correct for halves, which I use, and I might add, with a high degree of effectiveness.

Dude, drop it. Thanks for the meaningful parts of your post, the other crap is not needed. I've received what I was looking for. Again, I was not intending to "offend" you. (that part made me laugh by the way). And yes, I'm a noob. Been in the game for a while, but still learning. If you knew that, and you are so great at what you do, you should have just given me useful info.

[iCountNTrack]

It is hard for me to imagine locking a thread in the theory and and math section.