split index for 3,3 vs 8

[bigplayer]

Originally Posted by AOII ASC

According to Professional Blackjack 1974 edition. Table A1 -- High-Low, One-Deck, Dealer Hits Soft 17, for Player's hand of 3-3 vs. Dealer 8, split if double down allowed shows an index of 0. Table A2 -- Four-Deck, split 3-3 vs. 8 DAS at a TC of 4.

I have the same index +4 for High-Low for multiple deck DAS split 33 vs 8

[Gramazeka]

Exact index for Hi lo for 6 deck DAS 3,3 vs 8 hit or split = +5 TC. Exact index 2,2 vs 8= 3.4 TC.

EV 3,3 vs 8 ( 6 deck, split= 4 hand)

Hit TC 4= -0.2560
Hit TC 5= -0.2666
Hit TC 6= -0.2774

Split TC 4= -0.2582
Split TC 5= -0.2665
Split TC 6= -0.2754

p.s.

Index for not infinite deck.

[Gramazeka]

EV 3,3 vs 8 ( 4 deck, split= 4 hand)

Hit TC 4= -0.2557
Hit TC 5= -0.2663
Hit TC 6= -0.2771

Split TC 4= -0.2573
Split TC 5= -0.2654
Split TC 6= -0.2738

Exact index= +4.7 TC

[AOII ASC]

Eureka! Earlier I posted a single-deck index of 0. Gramazeka's sims show a TC os 4.7 for shoe games. It's because the pair of 3's robs the dealer of the opportunity to make 21. tthree posted that a side count of 7,8 would be valuable. I thought so too, but it appears 2's & 3's are more important to the dealer.
You are looking for the double-deck index. In 1D 50% of 3's are gone, 2D "only" 25%, as opposed to 2/32 or 6.25% in an 8D shoe game. I propose a TC of +1 for double-deck games, though I have no math to back that up. A positive TC in Hi-Lo should have fewer 2's and 3's.
I've been considering this question, BJMath, in addition to your CV simulations with varying results including negative numbers for a TC. I see this as similar to 7,7 vs. 10 in single-deck games.

[21gunsalute]

Originally Posted by AOII ASC

Eureka! Earlier I posted a single-deck index of 0. Gramazeka's sims show a TC os 4.7 for shoe games. It's because the pair of 3's robs the dealer of the opportunity to make 21. tthree posted that a side count of 7,8 would be valuable. I thought so too, but it appears 2's & 3's are more important to the dealer.

Uh, you might want to rethink that. How do taking 3's rob the dealer of the opportunity make 21 unless it's a game where the dealer hits hard 18 (which I've never heard of before)?

[AOII ASC]

Originally Posted by 21gunsalute

At TC5 you're probably at or close to your max bet so why would you want to split and double the money you have on the table (or more if resplits occur) to make what would very likely be 2 poor hands that you may bust out? And even if you don't bust out the dealer is very likely to make a hand with an 8 showing.

Good observation. In shoe games hit 3,3 vs. 8 since your max bet is out & splitting is risky towards your BR. The player's advantage for this hand is about -23, you wanna minimize losses. You will likely bust one or both & the dealer rarely busts 8.
A 3 would only help if it's in the hole, the dealer wouldn't hit a hard 18. This hand does not provide much in strategy deviation. I may be wrong, but splitting this hand is only relevant in single and double deckers with an average sized bet out. The Omega II count i use doesn't even have indices for this hand, always hit 3,3 vs. 8.

[tthree]

Same with HIOPT II, no index.

[bigplayer]

Originally Posted by 21gunsalute

Uh, you might want to rethink that. How do taking 3's rob the dealer of the opportunity make 21 unless it's a game where the dealer hits hard 18 (which I've never heard of before)?

Dealer 8 up + 3 in hole = 11. 11 + 10 = 21. If the count is high and you have 3-3 the chances for the dealer to also have a 3 in the hole is much lower than normal in a high count there are, on average, a normal amount of medium cards and a higher amount of big cards so you have a better chance of splitting 3-3 and winding up with hands stronger than 18 than if you'd just hit your 6.

[21gunsalute]

Originally Posted by bigplayer

Dealer 8 up + 3 in hole = 11. 11 + 10 = 21. If the count is high and you have 3-3 the chances for the dealer to also have a 3 in the hole is much lower than normal in a high count there are, on average, a normal amount of medium cards and a higher amount of big cards so you have a better chance of splitting 3-3 and winding up with hands stronger than 18 than if you'd just hit your 6.

Actually you have a good chance of busting out both hands rather than just busting out one.