Thinking of uping my indexes

FrankieT

Well-Known Member
#1
I use zen count with the top 22 indexes. Was thinking about going to 25 or possibly 30.

The quandary is I don't really think it's going to add a whole lot of EV. I ran a sim using CVCX comparing complete zen w/ my 22 risk adjusted indexes with complete zen with full indexes (using same 2deck game conditions/betting strategy), and the difference was pretty minute.

From what I gathered in Blackjack Attack, 22 is about as high as you'd want to go before the gains become insignificant.
 
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Zach Black

Active Member
#2
For playing DD indices are useful as you can't leave the table every time the count goes negative. I use hi lo and have worked with flash cards on indices from -6 to +6 and am at the point I'm within 1 TC 90% of the time when I drill. I seldom play DD so haven't invested the time to get to 100%.

In shoe games additional indices are occasionally useful if you decide to stick around for the last few hands and the count tanks.
 
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#3
Picking the index to add.

Look at hand frequency and the correlation your count has to the decision you are considering adding. Multiply your tag values by the EOR for each card in your count. The higher the number the better the correlation. Then look at the EOR values of the uncounted cards. If they are small and/or cancel each other out this adds to your correlation. If you find a relatively high hand frequency with high correlation that is an excellent index to add to your basic strategy deviations.
 
#4
tthree said:
Look at hand frequency and the correlation your count has to the decision you are considering adding. Multiply your tag values by the EOR for each card in your count. The higher the number the better the correlation. Then look at the EOR values of the uncounted cards. If they are small and/or cancel each other out this adds to your correlation. If you find a relatively high hand frequency with high correlation that is an excellent index to add to your basic strategy deviations.
Been done already. One nice thing about the negative indices is they can cut a hand out of a bad shoe when you draw more cards. Knowing the indices where you don't double is useful as it keeps money off the table, as well as eating cards and increasing your advantage.

Every counter likes the idea of free EV from better knowledge, wish there was more of it there.
 
#5
FrankieT said:
I ran a sim using CVCX comparing complete zen w/ my 22 risk adjusted indexes with complete zen with full indexes (using same 2deck game conditions/betting strategy), and the difference was pretty minute.

From what I gathered in Blackjack Attack, 22 is about as high as you'd want to go before the gains become insignificant.
If you are playing a lot of 2D I think its worth it to go to 60+
At least thats what it says in THE INTERVIEW. zg
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#6
FrankieT said:
I use zen count with the top 22 indexes. Was thinking about going to 25 or possibly 30.

The quandary is I don't really think it's going to add a whole lot of EV. I ran a sim using CVCX comparing complete zen w/ my 22 risk adjusted indexes with complete zen with full indexes (using same 2deck game conditions/betting strategy), and the difference was pretty minute.

From what I gathered in Blackjack Attack, 22 is about as high as you'd want to go before the gains become insignificant.
I am not advising pro or con about doing so. It's an individual choice. I play a few more than 22, myself. 30some. But really you have hit on the key point and addressed your own concerns. :)
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#7
Automatic Monkey said:
Been done already. One nice thing about the negative indices is they can cut a hand out of a bad shoe when you draw more cards. Knowing the indices where you don't double is useful as it keeps money off the table, as well as eating cards and increasing your advantage.

Every counter likes the idea of free EV from better knowledge, wish there was more of it there.
Not only eating extra cards, there are the surrender decisions that will have you eating less cards at a high positive count, so might be worthwhile to throw in those if you don't use them. There are also things like doubling 8 v 4 and 9 v 8 at a very high count, but not too crazy about them, as it involves extra risk at very high counts (big bets) that's probably not worth it, furthermore they just don't come up enough.

I play with 60, I would say 30 max is good, of course you can do fine with a less, especially if you don't play negative counts.

Just not worthwhile to learn more for most. For example, standing on AA v A on a -3 count is my favorite indice play, as its the only split decision where you can eat more cards at a "reasonable" negative count. But guess what, still only got to use it TWICE this year after hundreds of hours of play. What did learning this indice do, save me 25 cents of EV all year??? :laugh:

Did recently get the AA v A decision at around a -3 count just this week, and I was all jazzed, ready to bellow forth in a loud hearty voice so everyone can hear "I WILL NOT SPLIT MY ACES, I WILL HIT!". But of course dealer had a blackjack :grin:
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#9
dark_hatchling said:
So would yous guys say that learning the I18 is generally sufficient enough even for a pro? as it represents...80+% of all gain?
I gather many are of the opinion this is true, especially if you rarely play negative counts. I would certainly consider additional surrender counts beyond Fab 4. Personally I also like knowing many indices because I think there are additional benefits beyond strictly EV in the traditional sense (hard to quantify the value):

1) Some additional cover
2) Card eating
3) Ad hoc situations where you have to think on your feet. For example, dealer exposes hole card or dealer exposes next card. Indices sometimes help, e.g., once I had a 14 v 10 at around +4. Basically it was a coin flip decision to surrender, but when the next card was exposed and it was a 10 (and only the dealer would take a card on a non-pat hand), it was a no brainer to stand - later did I figure out that its no longer anywhere near a coin flip decision in this situation, you definitely stand. Lost on the hand :)

I play with about 50-60 indices, but I might have a knack for it, having something of a visual memory. I can "see" the indice chart, so might not be for everyone. Otherwise my memory for #s is horrible, I don't even remember my land line home phone # :laugh:
 
#10
Gamblor said:
Did recently get the AA v A decision ,,, ready to bellow forth in a loud hearty voice so everyone can hear "I WILL NOT SPLIT MY ACES, I WILL HIT!".
:laugh:

When I am keycarding Aces at 2D I often hit AA to create a 'super-keycard'. zg
 
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