BlackJack in Bars

#1
I live in a town that has blackjack tables in every bar. We use 4 decks and the betting spread is $1-$25. With these rules:
BlackJack pays 3:2
double on any 2 cards
split up to 4 times, except Aces, but can resplit aces
can double after split
dealer stands on soft 17
Usually about 1 to 1.5 decks are cut off.
From what I have read about counting and blackjack, this seems like an excellent game, for the veterans of blackjack is it?
I know the max is low but I want to use the Hi-Lo system with a min $1 and raise $5 ever +1 to the true count. Would this seem like a profitable approach?
I don't want to get rich, but make maybe $10-$15 an hour and get in lots of play as the bars are within 5 minutes from my front door.
Thanks for any responses.
RC
 

Percy

Well-Known Member
#4
This sounds like a good game. Particularly if you can find a dealer with a one deck cut off.

Do you know if you can play more than one box? Or even play behind people? If so, your max bet could be much higher and the game would become much more profitable.

Also:

Is there a hole card dealt?

Is there surrender?

Both these factors have a considerable affect on house advantage.
 

ace157

Well-Known Member
#5
looks like a GREAT game to me... even if the max is low, you should rack up continuous wins. If you're "not looking to get rich" than the low maxes should suit you quite well.

the only word of caution i would suggest is that ur bet spread seems rather aggressive. Perhaps hold off ur max bet (of $25) until the TC is maybe closer to 8 rather than 5 (+5 x $5 = $25). Or you might want to boost ur min bet... 1 dollar is pretty low if your looking to make ANYTHING decent... best case situation u hit a natural and win $3 on a $2 bet when the TC is +2 which is a decent advantage.
 
#6
I am in North Dakota.
Yes, the dealer has one up, one down.
There is no surrender.
You cannot play behind, but you can play either one or two spots.
I am actually a dealer myself, lol.
I know nearly every dealer in town and they would cut half a deck off if I asked them. I can even see the next card sometimes.....

For the last reply, are you recommending me playing $2 as a min, and a max of $25?

Another thing for the reply of max out at +8, I guess I am just going by Kevin Blackwood's book. He writes of the 1:20 spread for 6-deck so I figured it is the same.

What should be my spread and bets for most count situations?

Thanks again for the replies
RC
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#7
Are these games sanctioned, and regulated by the state?
Who are the dealers? Are the bars the bankers? Do you get free drinks while playing?
 
#8
First you need to see if there is any heat at all because u may actually be able to go ahead and spread 1-25 with no problem. At a casino they wouldnt even bother you with that spread because its so small, you arent a threat at all. Dont expect to get rich but you could make a couple bucks and get in some great practice..One thing i will say is you should always have your max bet out when your true count hits a + 5 no matter what.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#9


"takinfromindians" is correct about placing your Maximum bet at Hi-Lo +5,
BUT the real issue is that of the "Risk of Ruin" that you will face.
Without crunching any numbers I would think that your bankroll needs to be about $2,000 to keep your risk manageable.

 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#10
Stickum11 said:
Another thing for the reply of max out at +8, I guess I am just going by Kevin Blackwood's book. He writes of the 1:20 spread for 6-deck so I figured it is the same.
No big deal. Obviously a good game.

Obviously diff results with 2.5/4, 3/4, or 3.5 /4. Obviously diff results if using indexes or not or how many or spreading to multiple hands/round or not. Obviously different results if MSE allowed or not. I don't get "split up to 4 times, except Aces, but can resplit aces" lol? No big deal lol.

As for whatever KB may say about a 1-20 spread for 6D, btw, is this for a game with same rules and pen, counting system, indexes, as your 4D game?, for one, it's not a 1-25 spread, for another, it's not a 4D game.

Buy a Chihuahua or buy a Great Dane, what the heck, at least you're still playing with a dog. So, in that sense, really know difference at all lol.

Are these really physical cards? Hand-shuffled? If so, I'd worry alot more about cheating than being able to win not maybe that miuh but win that not-very-much with a relatively low $roll forever, apparently with little or no heat.
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#11
Stickum11 said:
For the last reply, are you recommending me playing $2 as a min, and a max of $25?

Another thing for the reply of max out at +8, I guess I am just going by Kevin Blackwood's book. He writes of the 1:20 spread for 6-deck so I figured it is the same.

What should be my spread and bets for most count situations?

Thanks again for the replies
RC
You happen to be playing a very good game. The house edge is only .28%. As for your spread I don't know what your bankroll roll or what the heat is like but with such a low table max I would bet $1 at 0 and below and go $25 at +1. Even go to two hands at +1. Find a quick dealer cutting out less than 1 deck, play heads up and you will make almost $20/hr.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#12
"dealt in bars" ... by whom ?

Are these professional full-time dealers ?
Is there a Pit Boss and a floor supervisor ?
Are there security cameras and video taping ?

Oedinarily a game with these rules and pen' would generate expected profits of just a few dollars an hour.

An aggressive bet ramp [within the $1-$25 constraints.] would be considerably more worthwhile.

I guess that it is worth more than $10 per hour if the ramp's bets look like $1 - $5 - $15 -$25 I am guessing here that, with Hi-Lo, Betting $1 when the count is below +1 and betting $5 at +2 and +3 , $15 at +4 and $25 at true counts of Hi-Lo +5 and above.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#13
SystemsTrader said:
You happen to be playing a very good game. The house edge is only .28%. As for your spread I don't know what your bankroll roll or what the heat is like but with such a low table max I would bet $1 at 0 and below and go $25 at +1. Even go to two hands at +1. Find a quick dealer cutting out less than 1 deck, play heads up and you will make almost $20/hr.

i think this is the best idea. if heat is an issue, alternate from $1 to $5(when the pit is around) at neutral counts and go straight to $25 at positive counts(TC=+1/1.5). With such a low ceiling you need to get max bets out quicker. Flash has the BR requirement about right $2k, $2.5k to be safer. If you can 'replenish' your BR then $500 should be enough for a 2 hour session.

edit, i would go to 2 hands at +3/+4. BR requirements will be higher, maybe 1.5X what I wrote.
 
#14
The gaming is basically non-profit. An organization backs the games. There is no "pit" sometimes a site manager, but that is basically another dealer. If you tip even average they will sometimes "help you out". There is absolutely NO HEAT AT ALL!!! Like I said, I am a dealer, but there are plenty of other organizations that have tables. I have a $5K bankroll, but can replenish up to $500 a week, so I don't think that is a problem. There is a camera, but it is just recorded and watches the dealers, not the players. The camera is only watched 30 minutes a week per dealer. Some of my BEST friends also deal, so I can get 20 cards cut off if I want EVERY shoe.
I guess I am just looking for the best bet spread, I have heard of the $1 or $25, but a spread seems smarter to me?
 
#16
Yes by a charity. 50% of the tables gross must go to the charity. Most dealers are paid between $4-6 per hour plus tips. The head people of each organization probably make between $40-$65,000. So they say charity but.... The top charity in the state last year made over a million dollars.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#17
Stickum11 said:
I guess I am just looking for the best bet spread, I have heard of the $1 or $25, but a spread seems smarter to me?
not really. since you are limited by your max bet, which if it was $50 you would have much more potential in this game. You need to get your big bets out as soon as you have a small advantage to maximize returns. unless you want to make $5/hr-quite literally.

think of the kelly betting system, which i know next to nothing about. you are supposed to bet proportional to your advantage as a function of total bankroll.

well your total bankroll exceeds 1% max bets, instead your max bet is 0.5% total bankroll. Even spreading to two hands is diluted by co/dependent outcomes. so 2 X 25 is still very low risk of ruin.

with max bets at +1 your variance will increase, but so will your hourly win rate. you have an advantage right? so you bet proportional to it.

if you want to cut down variance, then bet $1 TC=0, $10 TC=+1/+2, $25 TC = 3, 2X$25 at TC=+4.
 
#18
Mimosine,
Thanks for the post that was pretty much exactly what I was looking for... What would you expect the hourly win to be with that spread?

Another question about the $25 at +1 - don't I need atleast a +2 to have the edge over the house. Or since supposedly the game is .28% for the house each true count of +1 increases my edge by .50%? So after +1 I have a .22% edge after +2 a .72% edge, etc. Sorry this is so poorly written, but I guess I'm asking if this is what you are saying?
 

Homeschool

Well-Known Member
#19
Does the dealer win all pushes? The charity games we have here in Michigan sound great at first, BJ's even pay 2:1, until you get to the push rule.

Homeschool
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#20
Stickum11 said:
I guess I am just looking for the best bet spread, I have heard of the $1 or $25, but a spread seems smarter to me?
Of course a spread of $1 at -counts and jumping to $25 at the first +count is, to me anyway, absolutely nuts.

I know there are those who for some reason I cannot fathom seem to think it is better to bet "aggressively" just because one wants more $/round and it is a low $min-$max game. I guess if the limits were $100-$2500 you'd bet more conservatively or something.

A good quarterback takes what the defense gives you. A good BJ player takes what the game gives you.

The best spread is an optimal spread. You can't improve upon it - that's why they call it optimal. It will give you the best bang for your buck.

Bet with an optimal spread with $2000 and you will have a low ROR. Bet $1 at -counts and $25 at any +count, sure your $EV will go up per round. It probably won't even double while your variance might increase over 5X from what it was. With the same $2K your risk might go from 2% to 20%. You might need triple the roll to keep your risk the same and still be playing a game with a much lower SCORE than if you had bet optimally. N0 hands might increase 50%. Why bet a spread that only lowers a game's desirability?

In a 3/4 game maybe your max bet would come at +6. In a 3.5/4 game maybe it would come at +8. For certain, an optimal spread would be different at +1 thru +8 for each of the 2 pen levels. In a play-all situation I'm talking about. Maybe you could have a roll 300 or more units less in the better game than the worse game with the same risk while enjoying more $/rd. In the better game, N0 might be half of what it is in the worse game if you bet optimally in both cases.

Indexes might have a fairly significant impact too.

But, if play-all, like Thunder said, you probably just aren't gonna make much than 5-7 cents per round depending.

With the same $2K roll, you could have an ROR 5 times less in the better game than the worse one.

And of course, spreading to multiple hands or never playing a count below +1 or +2 (back-counting, if allowed) would change things too.

I could take my guesses at an optimal spread - maybe something like 4,9,13,18,22 with 25 at +6 for the 3/4 game. Maybe 3,6,9,12,15,19,22 with 25 at +8 for the 3.5/4 game. So that's $12 in the better game at TC+4 vs $18at +4 in the worse game. There is no "one spreads fits all" under changing conditions.

Maybe if someone like the Prince of Sims as I like to think of him lol, aka PrinceDragon wants to run a CVCX sim with 1 player, using Hi-Lo and all indexes with a 1-25 spread in play-all for a 4D, S17, DAS, Dbl on any 2, no re-split or re-hit aces, split to 4 hands, 100 hds.hr, no surrender, betting Kelly to a $10K roll, for a 3/4 and 3.5/4 game, it might show what I mean. Might not lol. That 3.5/4 game, with indexes, might have a SCORE around 100 - wouldn't totally surprise me.
And now you're talking 20 cards cut-off - might be time for another sim lol.

Nice opportunity to learn what a sim is telling you and what you have to tell it, measure results vs sim(s), learn indexes if so inclined, etc all with very low risk for not very much money.
 
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