Need Some Insight From Seasoned Pros

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#1
I'm fairly new to the counting world. I have taught myself how to count using ZEN pretty quickly and being on these forums has taught me that counting is done much like a business. Which brings me to my question. Can someone post a link or an article that explains EV SD and how its calculated? And can someone lead me to an explanation to these Indexes or try to explain what they mean?

How fast should I be able to count down a deck before I can accurately count in a casino environment? Also any general insight from pros to newbie's would be greatly appreciated.
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#3
Thanks. I did find the information I specifically asked for, but I now have another question which was not in the FAQ: Can anyone tell me or link me to an article that shows the player advantage per each ZEN TC?

Or in other words:
What is the player's advantage in percent at TC:

-1
0
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5 (based on the forums the TC rarely reaches above or at +5)

In a typical 6D shoe DAS early surrenderer only and double any hand blackjack pays 3:2
 

bjtocki

Well-Known Member
#4
I think you really should buy Blackbelt in Black (last edition is 2005), it explains everything about the Zen count you've asked for and so much more. You also need to know about betting strategies depending on your bankroll besides TC edges. I think that is at least we should do to support the work of the Zen master ;)
 
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Sonny

Well-Known Member
#5
UncrownedKing said:
Can anyone tell me or link me to an article that shows the player advantage per each ZEN TC?
It will depend on the rules, penetration, number of indices used, bet spread, number of players, TC conversion method, and a few other factors…but a general ballpark estimate might look something like this:

<0 = -2.5%
0 = -0.51%
+1 = 1.32%
+2 = 2.78%
+3 = 4.23%
+4 = 5.52%
+5 = 6.61%
.
.
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UncrownedKing said:
In a typical 6D shoe DAS early surrenderer only and double any hand blackjack pays 3:2
Are you sure it’s full early surrender? I don’t think early surrender exists in the US, and even most of Canada doesn’t allow it against an ace. If the casino also allows you to double down on any hand (not just the initial two-cards) then you may be playing a variation like Spanish 21. In that case the numbers above won't work.

-Sonny-
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#6
I wasn't talking about doubling any hand. I meant any initial total. Sorry for not being clear. Those advantages seem pretty big though. I wasn't really talking about any specific set of rules I just wanted a ballpark estimate.
Thanks for the replies
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#7
Can anyone confirm this?

Can anyone confirm the advantages of the previous ZEN TC's? I can't find anything on the internet after at least an hour of searching.

I have found something close to what I'm looking for:

6D DAS, 3 max split, no resplit aces, S17 ,double any 2 cards, no surrender, blackjack pays 3:2:

the player advantage is -0.24435%

If this is true, then those TC advantages seem pretty close. Maybe they are a little bit lower:

<0 -1%
+1 .5%
+2 1%
+3 1.5%
+4 2%
+5 2.5%

I'm not trying to discredit you Sonny, just want a pretty accurate estimate. By the way these are pretty rough estimates too.

Any confirmation would be greatly appreciated.
 
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#8
Sonny said:
It will depend on the rules, penetration, number of indices used, bet spread, number of players, TC conversion method, and a few other factors…but a general ballpark estimate might look something like this:

<0 = -2.5%
0 = -0.51%
+1 = 1.32%

+2 = 2.78%
+3 = 4.23%
+4 = 5.52%
+5 = 6.61%
Wow. I have not studied Zen, so not too familiar. But the difference between EV at TC 0 and TC 1 is so large... or is this the nature of an unlikely early surrender game? I wonder if Zen indexes are rounded to 0.25 or something?
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#10
UncrownedKing said:
Thanks. I did find the information I specifically asked for, but I now have another question which was not in the FAQ: Can anyone tell me or link me to an article that shows the player advantage per each ZEN TC?
Assuming you're using the standard "count-per-deck" method of true count, the advantages per each point in TC will be much less for Zen than with Hi/Lo. That's because with Hi/Lo, each counted card is worth only 1 point, where with Zen, each counted card is worth 1.64 points, on average.

This is not perfect, but it would be reasonable to assume your advantage will shift by .30% with each point change in the TC. Running a sim will get it down very close.
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#11
IS this what you're looking for? You have approximately a 1% advantage @ TC+4 which is equivalent to the removal of a 5 and 6 in a single deck of cards. I think!

Depends on which TC method you use. Heres the standard method.

Heres a canned sim from cvcx(below). I ran an identical sim, and the TC EVs were almost identical.


Heres a Cvdata sim(flatbet), but im not sure what the hell its saying

 

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UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#13
Wow. Incredible reply! I was talking about the traditional 1D TC method.

Thanks

Looks like 1D Zen TC= .31% per +1 TC

Renzy, you were almost dead on.
 
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