bankroll questions

#1
Hi,

It's been a while since I really concentrated on my bj game, I moved over to poker a while ago, but I want to get back in. I am thinking about starting out with a $1,000 bankroll.

I know what level I should play if this was 6 seated limit poker, but where should I start on bj? My math is rusty on the variance I should expect. I know the games matter too, I am going to play regular old blackjack with the dealer standing on a soft 17. What else do I need to think about?

Thanks for any help,
doc
 
#2
docdoom said:
I am thinking about starting out with a $1,000 bankroll.
Sounds like you should stick to poker. Unless someone starts offering good $1 games this isn't even in the ballpark. Add a 0 to that bankroll and now you are up to $5 min games.
 
#3
Don't play

Even at a $1 minimum game with good rules, you'd still be under-bankrolled. Never mind a $5 or $10 minimum game. Even one or two hour's worth of bad variance at a $5 game could see your whole bankroll evaporate.

Work on building at least a $5,000 replenishable bankroll for a $5 min game or a $10,000 bankroll for a $10 min game. If that means grinding for awhile at hold 'em, then do it. Work on your BJ game in the meanwhile.

That being said, if you're really a +EV poker player, there's very little reason to play BJ unless you're just bored. Why deal with more variance and the threat of getting the boot from a casino?
 
#4
Thanks for the quick responses. So 1000x bet is what I should have.

I am a card player at heart. I have lived on poker but don't at the moment. If you are sitting around with me in the evening its a lot likelier we end up in a game of "high, lo, jack, game" of rummy then watching Friends reruns. I miss blackjack. Its a simple and complex game.

How do blackjack tournaments work? Is it the same as poker tournaments? Buy in and then play against the dealer until the last guy with chips is standing? That could be a place for me to start.

Otherwise I will just have to invest more in my bankroll :)

thanks again for the comments.
 

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#5
Tournaments

docdoom said:
How do blackjack tournaments work? Is it the same as poker tournaments? Buy in and then play against the dealer until the last guy with chips is standing? That could be a place for me to start.
That's not usually how it works. The formats tend to vary a lot more than in poker, but generally there are two basic types -


Accumulation Tournaments.

You play for a fixed number of hands or period of time, after which your score is compared to everyone else in the tournament. The top scores advance to the next round, where the process is repeated (usually reverting back to equal numbers of chips, rather than carrying your score forward), or if it is the final round you are paid according to where you finish.

The only real skill here is to assess what score you are likely to need, based on the number of competitors, and size your bets so as to give you the best chance of achieving it. You can also sometimes delay your entry until after some scores have already been posted, giving you more information to work with.


Elimination Tournaments

Most people would agree that this is the more interesting format. You play a fixed number of hands (typically 20 to 30), with only the people at your table to beat. The format will state how many of the top scores from each table advance to the next round.

Again, you do not carry your score forward to the next round, so the goal is not to achieve a big score, just to make sure it is bigger than enough of your rivals' in order for you to advance.

There is a button which rotates around the table, indicating where the action starts in terms of betting decisions and playing actions. If you are to the left of your opponents on a crucial hand, you have a big advantage.

There are lots of strategic considerations -

Bet sizing is determined by your opponents' scores, your assessment of their skills (and therefore likely future betting patterns), your position in relation to the button, and the number of hands to go.

In the final few hands, and particularly on the final hand, basic strategy goes out of the window and your decisions are driven as much by your opponents' hands as by your own, as you may need to either match a particular player's win/lose result or to 'swing' them, winning your hand while they lose theirs.

There is also a variation in which there are a number of separate 'elimination hands' along the way, in which the player with the lowest score at the table is eliminated. This adds other considerations.


From what you've said, it sounds like this might be something you would enjoy. There's a lot more information available over at https://www.blackjacktournaments.com/.
 
Last edited:

blackjacktilt

Well-Known Member
#6
docdoom said:
Hi,

It's been a while since I really concentrated on my bj game, I moved over to poker a while ago, but I want to get back in. I am thinking about starting out with a $1,000 bankroll.

I know what level I should play if this was 6 seated limit poker, but where should I start on bj? My math is rusty on the variance I should expect. I know the games matter too, I am going to play regular old blackjack with the dealer standing on a soft 17. What else do I need to think about?

Thanks for any help,
doc
Stick with poker until you have the bankroll. Your EV is better. Play some 1/2 NL. $1000 will be gone in no time in BJ. Good luck finding good games also. Poker is much more profitable unless you have the BR for BJ. (and stomach). Already stated above I know, but the more who say it will help it stick.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#7
You are profoundly undercapitalized.

Your chances of success,

(even with the most forgiving of definitions),

are beyond "remote".
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#9
Wow. You just took a trip into Debbie Downer-town. Sorry for all the other negative people here, but you can make money with a $1k bankroll, you'll just need to learn how to back-count. You'll possibly be under minimum wage, but it is possible to make money playing blackjack with a $1k bankroll.

Otherwise, I'd recommend staying at poker until you get more money.
 
#10
action

Thanks moo321! :) I understand I need 1000x bets if I want to stay alive long enough to get any edge. I will give it a shot if I can find low enough games, otherwise I'll grind up my BR at the poker tables and then come back.

Tilt, Flash and Friendo. I have a job, so it's ok if I lose money. This BR is FOR playing cards, not for making money. There is a vast difference between those two things.

But I am curious, what kind of bankrolls are you guys cruising around with in order to maintain a nice enough revenue stream?

London Colin, thanks for that very clear description. It seems like BJ deserves more attention. Even in those tournament formats there are a lot of of moments that are way more fun then the usual table game. Are there a lot of places online with blackjack tournaments? I will check out the site you recommended, thanks.

doc
 

Youk

Active Member
#11
People are not giving you quantifiable information. The information you first need is the following:

-Type of game you are playing (double deck, 6D, 8D, SD)
-Rules (H17/S17, RSA, LS, DS, others)
-Penetration (e.g. 1.5 decks/6, 1/6, 1/2, .8/2)
-Spread (e.g. 1-8, 1-12, 1-16, 1-20)
-How much cover you have (none, minimal, heavy)
-Bankroll, and minimum bet

Finally, with all of that information, you can calculate your risk of ruin based on your bankroll.

Software packages can do all the math for you. CVData is very good, and so is BJRM2001. It is worth purchasing one of these packages to truly understand how much money you plan on making (and how much risk you have) when playing blackjack.
 

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#13
docdoom said:
London Colin, thanks for that very clear description. It seems like BJ deserves more attention. Even in those tournament formats there are a lot of of moments that are way more fun then the usual table game. Are there a lot of places online with blackjack tournaments? I will check out the site you recommended, thanks.

doc
You're welcome. In case it's not clear, the site I recommended is a sister site to this one. Ken Smith runs both.

A lot of online casinos run occasional accumulation-style tournaments as promotions. Elimination-style tournaments are less common. I play regularly at Blackjack21 and GameAccount.

You list your location as 'mostly in Sweden'. I take it you don't know of any live BJ tournaments in Sweden. They are very rare here in the UK, but quite common in the US. There is an event calendar at https://www.blackjacktournaments.com/.

I presume you are not American? There are a couple of online sites where Americans can still play, but the legal situation is uncertain. I'm slightly out of touch with the latest developments beyond the two sites where I continue to play. You can find out more both by browsing recent threads and asking any questions on Ken's other site. There is a sub-forum for online tournaments.
 
#14
Who is Ken Smith? Is he a famous blackjack player?

There are no real blackjack tournaments here in sweden as far as i know. The casino's are state owned.

I am actually american but live in Sweden, have for a while.

Why do you think there are so few BJ tournaments? Do people like them? Or do casino's NOT like them for some reason?
 

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#15
docdoom said:
Who is Ken Smith? Is he a famous blackjack player?
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/kensmith.php

docdoom said:
There are no real blackjack tournaments here in sweden as far as i know. The casino's are state owned.

I am actually american but live in Sweden, have for a while.
Have you looked into how the UIGEA affects U.S. citizens living abroad? I'm speaking from a position of total ignorance, but my assumption was that it applies the same as it does in the U.S. In which case your online opportunities for both BJ and poker would be limited, and those that do still exist might be considered risky.

docdoom said:
Why do you think there are so few BJ tournaments? Do people like them? Or do casino's NOT like them for some reason?
Depends where we are talking about.

I can't speak for Sweden, but here in the UK, blackjack itself is nowhere near as popular as in the US, let alone tournaments. So interest will automatically be limited. They crop up as occasional novelty events.

In the US, I believe there are still quite a number of BJ tournaments, though the popularity and the prizes on offer do not compare with poker.

These issues have been discussed at length on the other forum, but the general thing that seems to hold back BJ tournaments is that both the casinos and the many of the (potential) players do not really view them as games of skill. They are treated in much the same way as slots tournaments. The casinos hold them in order to get people through the door, in the hope that they will spend more money on other games, food, etc.

Some tournaments are invitational only, rewarding hi-rollers for all the action they have been giving. Others are open, with a buy-in, and generally with 100% or more of the buy-ins going into the prize pool.

The poker model of 'buy-in + fee' is rare in live BJ tournaments; the economics apparently do not stack up.

Online, however, it is the norm; along with the occasional freeroll or guaranteed prize pool.
 
Top