Another poker story for you to analyze...

Thunder

Well-Known Member
#21
I think both of you made some mistakes in the way you played the hand. Unless you were fairly certain that he raises preflop a lot with garbage, reraising him was probably not smart. On the flop, I like the bet you made as most people aren't going to put you on a set there and will think maybe you're trying to prevent the straight draw. (However for him to raise preflop with just j,q would be silly) Him calling your reraise preflop wasn't smart though and calling you again on the turn was even dumber but hey that's poker for you. In that same scenario, I've seen plenty of people call with a flush and straight draw, so you should almost expect that they'd call.
 

Jack_Black

Well-Known Member
#22
SleightOfHand said:
He may not understand implied odds, but calling a reraise with suited connectors is a great way to get implied odds. When you are reraised, especially from someone out of position, they are more polarized towards the premium hands. To call preflop for $50 to win $150 needs you to have 20% odds to win; which is great for his expressed odds (and IO). On the flop, he was flipping with overpairs and beating AK/AQ bluffs;
How is villain flipping with overpairs and beating AK bluffs with 68s?

SleightOfHand said:
Its not any two suited, its suited connectors (villains was a 1 gapper, which isn't terribly different). With suited connectors, you flop a straight/flush draw or better around 25% of the time.

Yes, I'm more polarized toward premium hands, so that would include suited face cards. I just don't see the IOs you can get from calling a 3 bet with 68s. you could catch the low end of a straight, and a weak flush, putting you both in trouble against a TAG player. Not to mention the cost of getting there paying for 3-bets, and C-bets and then to dump it if you think you're beat with the better straight/flush. If I were hero, and if villain was TAG, I would consider him having a flush draw with 2 suited face cards, or overpair. But since it sounds like hero thought of villain as fish/LAG, hero put him on a weak draw that villain was willing to pay for.
 

blackjacktilt

Well-Known Member
#24
Ok, I'm going to try to respond to all the posts....

I assure you I'm no fish lmao, but I know poker is an ever evolving game and no one will ever master it. I know I could improve the holes I have in my game and that's why I post these hands I run into. I honestly thank you all for your opinions and feedback, positive or negative.

I was raising for value preflop out of position, hence the 3x bet of original raise. I sensed weakness, and I always go with my reads. (right or wrong).
The villain did have me covered.
I never try to give a "free card" when I flop a set, unless I sense someone is trying to catch up (trying to spike two pair, or have the board pair). I always bet the pot or maybe just over the pot when a suited board comes. I know I have outs to fill up, but the numbers are against that. 2/5 games are only a little step up from the quality of players at 1/2. You generally have 3 players at the table (total) that pay attention to actions displayed, and have an idea about the math of the game. What I've learned is especially when you spike a big hand with a draw that could beat you, you must bet enough to threaten the villains bankroll. Either he/she will fold or think you are trying to push and call you. If they get lucky, then that's what happens, but in the LONGRUN I will make out.
I also play suited connectors aggressively, but when the action warrants it. I mentioned that I cracked aces with 8/9 suited. I should not have been in the hand, but it was heads up with a $30 raise called. I spiked trip 8's on the flop and the rest is history. I realize I tend to be overaggressive, and that intensifies the longer I play. I like to mix my game up so I do not become predictable, but maybe my success rate in this area is not what I think it is.
 

SleightOfHand

Well-Known Member
#25
Jack_Black said:
How is villain flipping with overpairs and beating AK bluffs with 68s?
Because thats the odds... Get poker stove and plug in 68hh vs AA and AKo on 5h9sTh. vs AAh you are a 40/60 underdog. vs AA you are 45/55. Vs AhK you are 55/45. Vs AK you are 60/40.

Yes, I'm more polarized toward premium hands, so that would include suited face cards. I just don't see the IOs you can get from calling a 3 bet with 68s. you could catch the low end of a straight, and a weak flush, putting you both in trouble against a TAG player. Not to mention the cost of getting there paying for 3-bets, and C-bets and then to dump it if you think you're beat with the better straight/flush. If I were hero, and if villain was TAG, I would consider him having a flush draw with 2 suited face cards, or overpair. But since it sounds like hero thought of villain as fish/LAG, hero put him on a weak draw that villain was willing to pay for.
The villain is calling only $50. The hero is $700 deep, meaning the villains max implied odds preflop is around 15:1, if you include the dead money in the pot, which is pretty dang good (let alone additional implied odds if the other players call). Including the expressed odds the hero gave by raising small, the players are 140 blinds deep, and the villain having position, there is really no reason to question the villain's call preflop. Having played 2/5 for my sole source of income for the past few months, I have an idea of what typical preflop ranges are for 3 bets, and it almost never just any 2 suited face cards. I would say the typical range is JJ+, AQo+, AQs+ with the occasional TT and AJs (and apparently 99). In this position, the flop that came was absolutely ideal for the villains range, only improved if the board was 3 to a straight. I would love to get it all in on the flop right now, being either player.

I would put the villains range preflop as something like 46s+, 56s+, 77+, AQo+, AJs+. After the flop, I would say something like 55, TT+, 67hh, 68hh, 78hh, 79hh, 89hh, 9Jhh, AJhh+. Now, fish and LAG are very different animals. Fish are very passive players and LAGs are aggressive players (assuming they actually know how to play LAG, otherwise its just loose). If it is a lag, you would probably take a lot of the suited connectors out of his range; he would probably raise the flop with those, along with flopped sets, although with position, just calling isn't as bad. If it is a fish, suited connectors and flopped sets are still possible.

The villain calling the flop wasn't the worst thing in the world; with 12 outs, he had ~25% chance to hit on the turn, meaning he needed 3:1 odds on the $210 bet. He only had 2:1, but its not unreasonable to think you can make $200 more if you hit the turn, which is ok implied odds on the flop. But once again, there were no implied odds on the turn with the hero's shove, so that just went out the window. Point is, villain's play wasn't horrible or even bad, just mediocre (until the turn).

blackjacktilt said:
Ok, I'm going to try to respond to all the posts....

I assure you I'm no fish lmao, but I know poker is an ever evolving game and no one will ever master it. I know I could improve the holes I have in my game and that's why I post these hands I run into. I honestly thank you all for your opinions and feedback, positive or negative.

I was raising for value preflop out of position, hence the 3x bet of original raise. I sensed weakness, and I always go with my reads. (right or wrong).
The villain did have me covered.
I never try to give a "free card" when I flop a set, unless I sense someone is trying to catch up (trying to spike two pair, or have the board pair). I always bet the pot or maybe just over the pot when a suited board comes. I know I have outs to fill up, but the numbers are against that. 2/5 games are only a little step up from the quality of players at 1/2. You generally have 3 players at the table (total) that pay attention to actions displayed, and have an idea about the math of the game. What I've learned is especially when you spike a big hand with a draw that could beat you, you must bet enough to threaten the villains bankroll. Either he/she will fold or think you are trying to push and call you. If they get lucky, then that's what happens, but in the LONGRUN I will make out.
I also play suited connectors aggressively, but when the action warrants it. I mentioned that I cracked aces with 8/9 suited. I should not have been in the hand, but it was heads up with a $30 raise called. I spiked trip 8's on the flop and the rest is history. I realize I tend to be overaggressive, and that intensifies the longer I play. I like to mix my game up so I do not become predictable, but maybe my success rate in this area is not what I think it is.
You should track your results (if you dont already) and see what kind of hourly you are getting. You may have been betting for value, but with the small raise, aren't you worried about the other 2 callers calling your reraise as well, making it a 4 way - 3 bet pot with 88 OOP? The 2nd caller would be getting 4:1 on his preflop call, which is some great odds with position, let alone the 3rd. Sounds like a recipe for tough decision making. Raising with 88 is really in the borderline for betting for value or a bluff, but its probably closer to a bluff imo. Anyway, I wont criticize the pf raise anymore, as that was pretty much the only thing I would have done different.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the skill level on 2/5; here is just a little slice from a PM I sent regarding what the general field is like:

SleightOfHand said:
It is true that the players have gotten MUCH better, especially over the course of the last 5 years, due to online poker. Like BJ, it is a game that has essentially been studied to death, which I believe has been, to a degree, solved. The average player that I have met in 2/5 is still subpar in skill. I would say about 30% of players are bad. Some have obvious tells in bet sizing, others are way too loose preflop, and of course, the rare whale that likes to go all in blind preflop. 50% of players have some idea of what they are doing; they understand value betting and showdown value. However, they are not so skilled post-flop and are generally a bit too passive. 15% of players are solid, with few leaks. 5% - 3% are good players that you'd rather not play with.
 

blackjacktilt

Well-Known Member
#26
SleightOfHand said:
Because thats the odds... Get poker stove and plug in 68hh vs AA and AKo on 5h9sTh. vs AAh you are a 40/60 underdog. vs AA you are 45/55. Vs AhK you are 55/45. Vs AK you are 60/40.



The villain is calling only $50. The hero is $700 deep, meaning the villains max implied odds preflop is around 15:1, if you include the dead money in the pot, which is pretty dang good (let alone additional implied odds if the other players call). Including the expressed odds the hero gave by raising small, the players are 140 blinds deep, and the villain having position, there is really no reason to question the villain's call preflop. Having played 2/5 for my sole source of income for the past few months, I have an idea of what typical preflop ranges are for 3 bets, and it almost never just any 2 suited face cards. I would say the typical range is JJ+, AQo+, AQs+ with the occasional TT and AJs (and apparently 99). In this position, the flop that came was absolutely ideal for the villains range, only improved if the board was 3 to a straight. I would love to get it all in on the flop right now, being either player.

I would put the villains range preflop as something like 46s+, 56s+, 77+, AQo+, AJs+. After the flop, I would say something like 55, TT+, 67hh, 68hh, 78hh, 79hh, 89hh, 9Jhh, AJhh+. Now, fish and LAG are very different animals. Fish are very passive players and LAGs are aggressive players (assuming they actually know how to play LAG, otherwise its just loose). If it is a lag, you would probably take a lot of the suited connectors out of his range; he would probably raise the flop with those, along with flopped sets, although with position, just calling isn't as bad. If it is a fish, suited connectors and flopped sets are still possible.

The villain calling the flop wasn't the worst thing in the world; with 12 outs, he had ~25% chance to hit on the turn, meaning he needed 3:1 odds on the $210 bet. He only had 2:1, but its not unreasonable to think you can make $200 more if you hit the turn, which is ok implied odds on the flop. But once again, there were no implied odds on the turn with the hero's shove, so that just went out the window. Point is, villain's play wasn't horrible or even bad, just mediocre (until the turn).



You should track your results (if you dont already) and see what kind of hourly you are getting. You may have been betting for value, but with the small raise, aren't you worried about the other 2 callers calling your reraise as well, making it a 4 way - 3 bet pot with 88 OOP? The 2nd caller would be getting 4:1 on his preflop call, which is some great odds with position, let alone the 3rd. Sounds like a recipe for tough decision making. Raising with 88 is really in the borderline for betting for value or a bluff, but its probably closer to a bluff imo. Anyway, I wont criticize the pf raise anymore, as that was pretty much the only thing I would have done different.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the skill level on 2/5; here is just a little slice from a PM I sent regarding what the general field is like:
Thanks Sleight, I now understand what the guy was saying. He MUST have been talking about his implied odds on the flop. And I hate raising OOP with anything but A,A, K,K or A,K (preferably suited), but I knew the field was weak, and the villain was already two buy ins deep. My re-raise should have been bigger pre-flop, you're right (again). Thanks, I'll be sure to post again or just PM you with situations I need help with.
 
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