trip report

Zerg

Active Member
#1
Here I am waiting for my flight home again. Just finishing up my 3rd Vegas trip in a couple months.

Some stories/funny moments:

Gentleman at monorail I overheard musing on the merits of a 3 day pass vs 3 one day passes: "I ain't gonna buy a 3 day pass for $28. You save two whole dollars big deal."

Note that one day passes cost $12.

Had a nice finish to a blackjack shoe. Won $2000 over the last couple decks. Cash out 2512.50. Dealer gives me 5 purps and the 12.50. I say "thank you" and toke the 12.50. Dealer with heavy sarcasm: "oh thank you so much very helpful." Me: "was that sarcasm?" Dealer "oh yeah maybe so." Me "so maybe I should take it back?" Dealer (with attitude) "oh I don't know." Me: "well if that's how you feel about it ill leave you this" (take back the $12 and leave the silver.

*note that I know 12.50 on 2000 is small. I tipped $430 this trip and only ended up winning 4000.

Also met the funniest side bet advocates I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot of them. Wish I could explain it better, but the gist of it was he was using big words somewhat incorrectly to incorrectly conclude that the bets I was making were house bets and the side bet was the good one.

Lessons, and the many ways I am disaappointed in myself:

I played some pretty strong games early in the trip and was very happy with my play/results. Was up quite a bit. I had thoughts of hanging out at the pool the last day, maybe playing some $5 craps to pass the time or better yet $1-2 nl poker (which is probably just slightly +ev for me.) I was pretty disappointed in myself for even having these thoughts. One lifeitme session, keep playing is the way to go.

The last day went poorly. Lost most of what I played. I lost at blackjack which was fine. I am very confident with my counting at this point. Lost some more waiting on an ace. Thought there was a good chance it was coming, had my table max bet ready but it didn't work out, never even got to place the bet. That was also fine, a good game. What I am really questioning is some other marginal games I played. I guess that is what I am upset with myself about. I made some mistakes, and shouldn't have been betting so much when I wasn't sure I had the best of it. I may have been better off at the pool! But I think I learned my lesson. Next time ill keep hitting it hard when its good, and leave it alone when its marginal.

Thanks for reading. Feels good to talk through it. Now I think I am ready for the next trip!
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#3

He tipped 43.0% of his winnings.

That is excessive by an order of magnitude.

My practice is to toke frequently but with very small amounts.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#4
FLASH1296 said:
He tipped 43.0% of his winnings.

That is excessive by an order of magnitude.
His winnings are irrelevant. How much of his EV did he tip away? Perhaps it was only 1% of his EV or perhaps it was over 100%.

-Sonny-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#6
FLASH1296 said:
His e.v. exists only in theory.

Cash in his pocket is a "fact on the ground"
I don't understand, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this. The cash in his pocket can easily be lost back while the tip is non-refundable. Tipping based on the amount won and ignoring the EV can cause players to tip more than they earn in the long run. If you give away more than you earn you will not stay in business no matter how much cash is in your pocket on any given day.

-Sonny-
 

Zerg

Active Member
#7
blackjack avenger said:
You may be tipping to much, overall.
Avenger, I agree. I continue to vow to tip less, but usually cave. Dealers like this help me reach my goal of tipping less, I would bet I eventually stop tipping altogether after a few years of experiences like that or an extended losing streak.

Currently I tip 1-2% of actual wins. Ytd it has worked out to be bout 7%.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#8
If one tokes based on e.v. the tokes may as well be imaginary, as that is what e.v. is.

The dealer and floor person only know how much you won/lost.

If one plays and leaves the table with ANY loss, leaving a toke stings a bit.

If one plays and leaves the table with a sizable win, a toke may look stingy,

if it is based on e.v. — if the win is +2 SD.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#9
FLASH1296 said:
If one plays and leaves the table with a sizable win, a toke may look stingy,

if it is based on e.v. — if the win is +2 SD.
That is very true, but many people would say that looking stingy is a better alternative to giving away all of your wages.

FLASH1296 said:
If one tokes based on e.v. the tokes may as well be imaginary, as that is what e.v. is.
I think this is the part I don't understand. Your EV is an estimate of how much you will earn in the long run. How is that imaginary? If anything I would think that a large win (or loss) would give a player a false sense of their success rate. That's why APs make the distinction between winnings and earnings. It seems like the short-term wins and losses are more imaginary than the long-term EV.

-Sonny-
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#10
As you said — one's e.v. is an "estimate".

An estimate "resides" in the mind.

It is a Gaussian abstraction.

A latent metric, as so to speak.

It is not reified; and doesn't exist in the past, present or future.

If one tokes a modest amount upon winning and little or nothing when losing, it feels natural to the dealer and the pit critters alike.

I cannot recall an obnoxious sarcastic dealer saying anything unpleasant to me following a losing session.
 
#11
I tip according to results as I play. Small tips after good short term success. Never had a dealer complain when I left. One of the times I left after a good opportunity well capitalized on, I tried to tip the dealer on everyones hands. The ploppies to the right wanted to blame my going from 1 hand to 2 and back on their misfortune. They wouldn't let me even though they had allowed another guy to do it repeatedly. I put it all on the guy to my left's hand. I stayed to watch and he was the only one who won that hand. I said, Never fails my tip bet is always lucky to whoever has it out. I walked away letting their superstitious minds to go to work.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#12
FLASH1296 said:
It is not reified; and doesn't exist in the past, present or future.
But it does exist in both the present and the future. In the present it is the amount that you expect to earn for a given hour/session/trip. It exists in the future once you've played enough hands to overcome enough of the variance.

FLASH1296 said:
If one tokes a modest amount upon winning and little or nothing when losing, it feels natural to the dealer and the pit critters alike.
So how does one determine a modest amount when dealing with immodest wins and losses?

A tip is basically a loss rebate for the casino. We all know much of an advantage they can be. If a player isn't careful they can easily tip away their entire advantage even if they are only tipping on wins. How can a player protect their advantage without knowing their EV?

-Sonny-
 
#13
Sonny + Flash = both correct

Yes, your tip comes out of your EV, and you never get it back.

But also, when you have an outrageously good session, that money is added to your EV, and you never have to give it back. You are not holding it in escrow to variance. Thus if you tip some of your good fortune away, your future EV is exactly what it would have been had you not tipped, and you still have all of the good fortune you didn't tip away.

I'm not telling anyone to tip, but the harm it does is limited to its face value. There are some cover moves I make only after big wins, because if I've had a lot of good variance I can now afford a little of the bad. Only if the cover is worth it of course.
 
#14
Sonny said:
A tip is basically a loss rebate for the casino. We all know much of an advantage they can be. If a player isn't careful they can easily tip away their entire advantage even if they are only tipping on wins. How can a player protect their advantage without knowing their EV?

-Sonny-
Your EV is not necessarily what you will average. Most will not play perfectly. Your actual wins and losses averaged over time is your true EV. Some players may side count cards without even realizing it. They have a close call and go against the razor thin edge and don't know why. If they had actually been side counting they would see the razor thin edge was wrong and a large edge actually existed in the opposite decision. I don't recommend this sort of seat of the pants decision making. I am only saying some probably do it without realizing why.
 

zoomie

Well-Known Member
#15
FLASH1296 said:
If one tokes based on e.v. the tokes may as well be imaginary, as that is what e.v. is.

The dealer and floor person only know how much you won/lost.

If one plays and leaves the table with ANY loss, leaving a toke stings a bit.

If one plays and leaves the table with a sizable win, a toke may look stingy,

if it is based on e.v. — if the win is +2 SD.
Agree. I'll toke 1% of a win, up to $25, and all seem happy with that. When I lose, either zip or, at the home store and if I had a long session, $5, and everyone seems happy with that as well.

Why do I care whether the casino personnel are happy? Mainly for comps. I suspect that stiffing the dealer could sharply reduce my avg bet entered by the suit. For a short losing session, though, I stiff.
 
#16
Zerg

Tipping, I tip for a positive dealer when I am making my moves, his-her tip is a bet riding next to mine, this brings the dealer into the action and forms a bond, can,,,,if you win they get double the tip,,,works great for me. If a dealer ever comments about a tip being too small, don't hesitate to tell them where to go.:cool:

As to not playing the last day,,, when you are feeling warm and fuzzy about your win, I say if you desire go swimming, get laid, get a massage with a happy ending:cool:,,,because if you lose on that last day it may be a long wait to get a chance to get it back. The emotions of the game and of us human beings cannot be denied, not even for us rock hard AP's:rolleyes::laugh: We do have a Psyche to consider, I say relax and enjoy, you fought a hard battle and won, enjoy the spoils.:)

If you are anything like me, leaving a loser turns me into one very mean and dangerous,,,nasty cat,,,,and that is just a fact:yikes:

CP
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#17
creeping panther said:
Tipping, I tip for a positive dealer when I am making my moves, his-her tip is a bet riding next to mine, this brings the dealer into the action and forms a bond, can,,,,if you win they get double the tip,,,works great for me.
Amen. Piggyback that sucker, and it rides with your wave.

I also agree with one of FLASH's earlier comments in that toking regularly with small amounts is quite effective (unless getting crushed on a few big bets, I think it is understood that no toking is natural).
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#18
I have also seen dealers get pissed when you win a lot and leave a relatively "small" tip.

If I was extremely rich and could independently afford to be betting 2x700 then yeah I would probably tip a lot more, but I can't so I don't.

Too bad I can't explain that to them :laugh:
 

paddywhack

Well-Known Member
#19
Generally speaking, unless you're getting something for it, tipping is neg ev and we all know it.

If you win big and tip 1%, you look cheap. If you tip 10% then you've probably just tipped away your ev. You may look better in the dealer's eyes but who gives a crap.

Home store, then I take a different line, but we're talking an occasional trip to Vegas here. Stiff 'em.
 
#20
paddywhack said:
Generally speaking, unless you're getting something for it, tipping is neg ev and we all know it.

If you win big and tip 1%, you look cheap. If you tip 10% then you've probably just tipped away your ev. You may look better in the dealer's eyes but who gives a crap.

Home store, then I take a different line, but we're talking an occasional trip to Vegas here. Stiff 'em.
You do realize who it is that places the cut card. If you tip modestly with success WHILE you are playing and the dealer has a clue that you have a better chance of success if he cuts deep then he may be more inclined to give a favorable cut. Part of being an AP is learning how to work the dealer. It is a big part of getting better penetration. It works some of the time but when it works well you really have made yourself a great opportunity.
 
Top