The Bear Growls at Tribal Sovereignty

#1
The Bear Growls: Tribal sovereignty needs to end

Long-time Las Vegas-based advantage player, casino critic, and frequent BJ21.com contributor LVBear offers his opinions on things that sometimes go wrong in the world of casinos. Current and past growls can be read and comments posted at LVBear's website, TheBearGrowls.com

By LVBear
[email protected]


The various pacts setting up tribal sovereignty were made long before anyone entering into them considered that one day the Indians would be building large casinos and soliciting non-tribal members to come onto “their” land. The folly of “tribal sovereignty” was enacted long before it was considered that tribal members and their employees will routinely commit violent crimes against non-tribal members of the public, but have no legitimate law enforcement agencies to arrest and prosecute the casino employee perpetrators. Or run these casinos with no legitimate regulatory oversight, with most of the Indian “gaming commissions” mere puppets for the casinos themselves, sometimes using the same people in conflicting positions. These Indian “gaming commissions” almost make the Nevada Gaming Control Board look as if it legitimately acts to protect the public from casino wrongdoing.

In the Soboba case, the Riverside County Sheriff essentially says the “reservation” is too dangerous for non-tribal members to enter. Deputies are turned away by these puffy-chested, bloated, self-important tribal “leaders.” How much more ridiculous can it get?

I realize there are much bigger issues facing our country, with two lousy presidential candidates offered up by the major parties. It’s embarrassing and a shame that Obama and McCain are the best these political parties can dredge up. I am ashamed that the United States must be the laughingstock of the world.

Be that as it may, the stupidity of tribal sovereignty gets worse and worse as the Indian casinos take more advantage of the public with virtually no regulation over their conduct. Other tribal business entities have hidden behind sovereignty as well. Being forced to use the tribal kangaroo courts to settle civil disputes prevents many legitimate businesses from wanting to do business with the Indians, to the detriment of the tribes as well as the businesses. Why do we stand for this?

What can we do at this point? In a discussion of this issue on BJ21.com Green Chip, my friend Biglad made the following observations:

<>The tribal leaders are both stupid and greedy. They can't see the forest for the trees. … there are a few exceptions. If they were smart, they would assimilate their business and commercial operations into mainstream America. They have been given an opportunity to improve their communities, but most fail to do so.

We should eliminate the sovereign nations around the country. The current reservations should be given the status and borders of a county in the State they are in, and be subject to the same laws as the rest of us. If they do a good job the current tribal leaders will continue in power as elected officials. If they don't, then they will be voted out like any politician. But alas, that would be the fair and proper thing to do.

Given the pathetic bunch we presently have running our country, I doubt if anyone has the intestinal fortitude to take on the challenge of ending this favoritism towards Indians and the special privileges they have been handed. Largely they have squandered their opportunity. It is time for them to become productive members of the mainstream United States, not be part of a silly “sovereign nation.”

Changing the status of the reservations to counties within the states they’re located in (parishes in Louisiana) makes sense and is a good step. Sadly, I doubt if many of our politicians have the courage to get the system moving towards eliminating the present inequities and special, favored treatment given to this small minority of people.

Without some action, Indian casino thugs like the creeps at Fantasy Springs will continue to commit crimes against patrons with impunity, and the thugs in charge of Soboba will continue to resist legitimate law enforcement. These things are to the detriment of all of us, Indians and non-Indians alike.

Additional sources:
Riverside County sheriff calls for closure of Soboba tribe's casino

RIVERSIDE, CA - Riverside County Sheriff Stanley Sniff on Tuesday called on federal authorities to shut down the Soboba Casino, saying that the tribal council had ordered security officers to block or delay his deputies from entering the troubled reservation, where five members have been shot to death during confrontations with his department.

... Soboba tribal chairman vows to stop Riverside County deputies at reservation gate

RIVERSIDE, CA - Despite the threat of arrest and possible closure of their casino, leaders of the Soboba Band of Luiseño Indians said Wednesday that they would continue stopping law enforcement officers at the gates of their reservation unless they were responding to an emergency.
AMERICAN INDIAN SOVEREIGNTY: NOW YOU SEE IT, NOW YOU DON'T, by Peter d'Errico, Legal Studies Department, University of Massachusetts/Amherst
<>
No doubt the Indian tribes were at one time sovereign and even now the tribes are sometimes described as being sovereign. The blunt fact, however, is that an Indian tribe is sovereign to the extent that the United States permits it to be sovereign -- neither more nor less. [364 F.Supp. at 194.]
Indian Gaming and Tribal Sovereignty -- The Casino Compromise, by Steven Andrew Light and Kathryn R.L. Rand
This book provides the clearest and most complete account to date of the laws and politics of Indian gaming. Steven Light and Kathryn Rand explain how it has become one of today’s most politically charged phenomena: at stake are a host of competing legal rights and political interests for tribal, state, and federal governments. As Indian gaming grows, policymakers struggle with balancing its economic and social costs and benefits.
 

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#2
I did some web searches on specific Indian tribes once. It's interesting the things you can find online. I agree with the Bear. Things just aren't right.

Look up San Manuel and find out some of these wealthy Native Americans are drug dealers/gang members (not enough money?). Also look up Chumash and read some interesting history about their gaming commision. My searches were mainly focused on southern California casinos. I'm sure there's a lot more to read out there. And this was about a year before the recent happenings at Soboba and Fantasy Springs.
 
#4
Zen, true

zengrifter said:
I think its wonderful - the red man's revenge on the white man. zg
to a point. I say let them keep the present status with the exception of criminal acts and employment laws which must come under Federal and State
jurisdiction.

The people must truly vote with their feet and not enter these areas when their safety if threatened. If they don't than they can only blame themselves for their stupidity. Boycott them... "No Mun, No Fun".

In the Midwest the tribes are generally very well managed as far as safety and law enforcement are concerned and the gaming can be very fair.

We owe these tribes a break for destroying their culture and way of life as well as stealing their land and performing an Holocaust on them. I always thought it strange :confused: that we actually have Holocaust, (Jewish), centers here in the U.S. when we did nothing against Jews but ignore the Native Americans and their destruction by our very hands.:(


CP
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#6
creeping panther said:
We owe these tribes a break for destroying their culture and way of life as well as stealing their land and performing an Holocaust on them.
This would be a valid point if the tribes that ran casinos were the same tribes that were/are suffering.

When the law allowing tribal gaming was enacted, there were two very well-meaning limitations inserted whose unintended consequences turned the whole tribal gaming thing into a clusterf---.

(1) The casino must be built on tribal land. Of course, legislators didn't want tribes just building casinos willy-nilly, so they stipulated the casinos had to be on tribal land. Unfortunately, this just meant that tribes started buying land wherever they could and finding a way to get it declared "tribal" land.

(2) The tribe had to share the profits evenly to all tribe members. Again, well-meaning, but that just meant that tribes had a reason to limit membership.

As a result of these rules, big tribes which have reservations (e.g. Hopi or Navajo) and retain their culture have almost no incentive to open a casino - they're far away from civilization and they would each get a few bucks. On the other hand, greedy businessmen who realized they were 1/32nd Native American had every reason to try and "reunite" a tribe of 4 people and then exclude everyone else, buy land near urban areas, declare it "tribal", and cash in with BILLIONS by partnering with a large Nevada casino.

I am all in favor of righting wrongs, preserving culture, and helping people help themselves; tribal gaming does NONE of any of that.
 
#9
Calli

I understand your argument, but there are some very good things being done with tribal casino money.

The Feds just voted down an attempt to allow tribes to have "Off Res." casinos.

There are always unintended consequences.

CP
 

Billy C1

Well-Known Member
#10
Native Americans

The ones that were wronged have been dead for MANY years. The ones living now, we owe NOTHING.
My opinion, only.

Billy C1
 

Guynoire

Well-Known Member
#11
For those of you who don't know, the californian indians were not like the indians you read about in history books. They weren't large, organized, and warlike, but small, fragmented and more peaceful. I think there were more seperate tribes just in California than in the rest of the country combined. The indian wars weren't fought in California and I don't think the state owes them anything.

To be fair though, I do think the california indian policy was stupid and unfair. Because Indian policy was based on dealing with lager more organized tribes they just gave an area of land in a particular region to one tribe. The result was that the tribe that was luckiest or had the best PR received land while most received squat. There were probably many tribes near Hemet that were simply ignored and I don't think the Soboba tribe is particuairly entitled to their land more than the other residents of the area.

Admittedly, I like the Soboba casino. Their games have deteriorated recently but they do offer lots of good promotions.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#12
Just thought I'd throw this in...

Shakopee tribe among giants in corporate gifts

The Mdewakanton Sioux give aid to poor tribes - as well as to the U.

By DAVID PETERSON, Star Tribune

Last update: August 28, 2008 - 12:01 AM

The Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community's charitable giving has soared to nearly $60 million over the past two years, ranking it among the biggest sources of philanthropy in the state.

The tribe has grown wealthy from its Mystic Lake casino and other operations, and its giving is several times higher than it was just a few years ago. Its bump in giving since 2007 could end up ranking it among the top 10 grant makers in the state for 2008, alongside the likes of Cargill and Medtronic, newly released figures show.

Many of the biggest checks are going to impoverished tribes in the Dakotas. But the biggest of all -- $12 million last year -- stayed within the state to help the University of Minnesota's new stadium and scholarship programs.

"They are one of the, if not the, most generous tribes in the nation," Ernie Stephens, chairman of the National Indian Gaming Association, said Wednesday from Denver. "Not just to surrounding communities but to Indian people in general."

People close to the tribe say it's no surprise that out-of-state tribes are getting much of the largesse, along with those closer to home.

"They've been tremendously generous to Prior Lake when we've had needs, such as lights for our parks," said Jack Haugen, the mayor of the suburb in which much of the tribe's land is located. "But with some of the tribes they are helping, we're talking about the basics of life."

From today's Minneapolis StarTribune: http://www.startribune.com/local/south/27572559.html?elr=KArksUUUU
 

N&B

Well-Known Member
#13
Well, one side of my parentage goes back to 1642 in this country (New Amsterdam) thanks to a cousin in the geneology bizz. The other side 1835. Unfortunately for me, no Native American ancestry.

As far as the OP issue, the wrinkle is the local cops. As I posted elsewhere, "usually" this is a matter for State Law Enforcement, State Militia, and or the Feds. Unless this specific treaty states otherwise, thats who gets the call when trouble abounds. Now if the Sherriff's Department is a form of State Law Enforcement, and not local or County Enforcement, we have a problem. If it is local, just call in the State... FIRST !
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#14
Canceler said:
Shakopee tribe among giants in corporate gifts

The Mdewakanton Sioux give aid to poor tribes - as well as to the U.

By DAVID PETERSON, Star Tribune

Last update: August 28, 2008 - 12:01 AM

The Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community's charitable giving has soared to nearly $60 million over the past two years, ranking it among the biggest sources of philanthropy in the state.

The tribe has grown wealthy from its Mystic Lake casino and other operations, and its giving is several times higher than it was just a few years ago. Its bump in giving since 2007 could end up ranking it among the top 10 grant makers in the state for 2008, alongside the likes of Cargill and Medtronic, newly released figures show.

Many of the biggest checks are going to impoverished tribes in the Dakotas. But the biggest of all -- $12 million last year -- stayed within the state to help the University of Minnesota's new stadium and scholarship programs.

"They are one of the, if not the, most generous tribes in the nation," Ernie Stephens, chairman of the National Indian Gaming Association, said Wednesday from Denver. "Not just to surrounding communities but to Indian people in general."

People close to the tribe say it's no surprise that out-of-state tribes are getting much of the largesse, along with those closer to home.

"They've been tremendously generous to Prior Lake when we've had needs, such as lights for our parks," said Jack Haugen, the mayor of the suburb in which much of the tribe's land is located. "But with some of the tribes they are helping, we're talking about the basics of life."

From today's Minneapolis StarTribune: http://www.startribune.com/local/south/27572559.html?elr=KArksUUUU
As long as they keep being generous with their BJ game that's good enough for me! :cool2:
 

FrankieT

Well-Known Member
#15
I agree 100% with this edition of Thebeargrowls.

If you haven't read it, please read this:

(Dead link: http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/online-poker-play46812.html)


Basically, Arter49 and Snowman315 were the big jackpot winners but Royal River Casino just decided not to pay them. Oh they have some so-called "reasoning" behind it, but it's just plain ludicrous.
 
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FrankieT

Well-Known Member
#16
N&B said:
Well, one side of my parentage goes back to 1642 in this country (New Amsterdam) thanks to a cousin in the geneology bizz. The other side 1835. Unfortunately for me, no Native American ancestry.

As far as the OP issue, the wrinkle is the local cops. As I posted elsewhere, "usually" this is a matter for State Law Enforcement, State Militia, and or the Feds. Unless this specific treaty states otherwise, thats who gets the call when trouble abounds. Now if the Sherriff's Department is a form of State Law Enforcement, and not local or County Enforcement, we have a problem. If it is local, just call in the State... FIRST !
My grandfather was fuggowin.




















His tribe used to wander around the woods and say "where the fuggowwe".













Good sopranos episode :D
 
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FrankieT

Well-Known Member
#17
Canceler said:
Shakopee tribe among giants in corporate gifts

The Mdewakanton Sioux give aid to poor tribes - as well as to the U.

By DAVID PETERSON, Star Tribune

Last update: August 28, 2008 - 12:01 AM

The Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community's charitable giving has soared to nearly $60 million over the past two years, ranking it among the biggest sources of philanthropy in the state.

The tribe has grown wealthy from its Mystic Lake casino and other operations, and its giving is several times higher than it was just a few years ago. Its bump in giving since 2007 could end up ranking it among the top 10 grant makers in the state for 2008, alongside the likes of Cargill and Medtronic, newly released figures show.

Many of the biggest checks are going to impoverished tribes in the Dakotas. But the biggest of all -- $12 million last year -- stayed within the state to help the University of Minnesota's new stadium and scholarship programs.

"They are one of the, if not the, most generous tribes in the nation," Ernie Stephens, chairman of the National Indian Gaming Association, said Wednesday from Denver. "Not just to surrounding communities but to Indian people in general."

People close to the tribe say it's no surprise that out-of-state tribes are getting much of the largesse, along with those closer to home.

"They've been tremendously generous to Prior Lake when we've had needs, such as lights for our parks," said Jack Haugen, the mayor of the suburb in which much of the tribe's land is located. "But with some of the tribes they are helping, we're talking about the basics of life."

From today's Minneapolis StarTribune: http://www.startribune.com/local/south/27572559.html?elr=KArksUUUU
I've been to Mystic Lake, and I have to say it is a class joint and definitely one of, if not the best, Indian joints I have been to. Not withstanding, their games are definitely not garbage, at least the last time I was there.

If even a fraction of Indian casinos turned out like Mystic Lake I would have a much different view of Indian "gaming sovereignties".

One has to assume the tribe got plenty of outside help in making Mystic Lake what it is. Nevertheless, it's good to see they are not turning a monopolized "license to print money" into a reason to provide nothing but garbage games, lousy service, and customer abuse like the majority of Indian joints seem to do.

Most casino owners don't give a flying turd about half the Indians in their small tribes let alone Indians outside their tribe. Not consolidating their large profits to a select few family members like most greedy tribes like to do is definitely a plus. Have to give credit to them for that.
 
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#18
Billy C1 said:
The ones that were wronged have been dead for MANY years. The ones living now, we owe NOTHING.
Thats a bit harsh, considering that American Indians are as a whole more oppressed and unhealthy than American Negroes, as a whole. zg
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#19
Mystic Lake wasn't always so generous in either giving to less fortunate indians or their penetration. They must have eventually decided they were rich enough with their almost 1 million a year per capita payouts.
 

Billy C1

Well-Known Member
#20
Help themselves?

zengrifter said:
Thats a bit harsh, considering that American Indians are as a whole more oppressed and unhealthy than American Negroes, as a whole. zg
That's probably true but I'm sure you've heard the old saying that "you can't help people that won't help themselves" and I'm not being racist because it applies to Caucasions, as well!

Billy C1
 
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