New card counter with some questions

#1
Hello everyone,
I'm new to card counting and I have a few questions that some people might have answers to. Firstly, let me explain my situation, I'm 16 years old, so i have just under two years before I am legally allowed into my local casinos, and just recently (about two weeks ago) the idea of counting came to me. Since then, I have mastered basic strategy, and I can count a deck of cards using Hi/Lo in about 30 seconds. From what I've picked up this is quite a fast pace to be learning at, and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on where I should go from here. I was thinking either learning a level two count or adding a 10 side count to my Hi/Lo. Any suggestions and/or other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
 
#2
First step is to learn how to convert your running count into your true count.

You do that by dividing your running count into how many decks are left to be played. For beginners I recommend you get six decks and use whole deck estimations. (52 cards to a deck) Then learn half deck estimations. Also only play anywhere from half of the six deck shoe to 3/4's For example if your RC is +9 and you have 4.5 decks remaining your True count would be, +2. Because 9 divided by 4.5 decks remaining in the shoe is +2. If you were play all this is when you want to raise your bet.

After you have that down pat, you need to decided how big your bankroll is going to be. From there you need to decide how you are going to bet. And what game you want to play the most. Hint hint, 6-8 decks with decent pen is the best for beginner who does not have the bankroll to play all. If you dont then you want to do something that is known as wonging. If you have any questions on the definitions of certain things, just ask.

I would personally recommend that you learn the above before getting to far into the game because it could be complicated at first if you dont what is what. The above is the bare minimum basics

From there hit your mom and dad up for a blackjack software called Casino Verite Blackjack from http://www.qfit.com for Christmas. And get the registered version. The one that cost money. The free demo is missing 5's and jack's.

It not only has a blackjack game that gives you an idea of when the pit and surveillance teams are getting suspicious, but it also has all the good drills that makes a newbie like you the card counter they want to be.

After you got the game down pat and understand every little thing in that game, then learn your I18 and fab 4 index plays.

From there find out why each thing works out the way it does by learning the math behind to better understand the game and why you MUST play it a certain way.

Then you should be ready for the casino.

I recommend you copy and paste this to your personal computer so you can bring it up when ever you want.

If anyone else has anything to add, help this kid. If you disagreed with anything that I post as advice for him. Tell me what you want fixed and then I will correct it.

Oh... also get the registered version of CV data, CVCX from http://www.qfit.com as well.

You can simulate with accuracy how you want to play and you can see how your play is going to be by making small tweaks in your game to play the way you want to play. Also CVDATA is awesome for learning other counts, as well as Casino Verite Blackjack. But leave those sections alone until you have you know hi-lo like the back and front of your hand.
 
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#3
welcome and goodluck :)

I started the journey about 6 months ago. A few things I would add to ringle's post that I have learned along the way thus far...

1.) Counting down a deck fast and being able to count in casino-like conditions with little to know error are totally different animals! I think that starting out, counting down decks is fine to see your progress and to get used to visually recognizing specific tags for your count and increasing your speed. In my experience it certainly took me longer than a few weeks to count down a deck (by hand) in less than thirty seconds, but that really didn't seem to have much correlation to playing and keeping the count at the casino.

2.) As Ringle mentioned Casino Verite can be a very useful tool, but the free demo version has plenty of useful counting drills to aid you (which include fives and jacks :)...so if your short on funds, just download the demo version and primarily use the counting drills. Along with these drills, their is a great practice site that is free called blackjack-drills where u can practice counting and basic strategy etc...i have used it quite a bit especially the full table drills, and found that it has really helped.

3.) Again, practice until you have no doubt about your skill, and then practice some more. IMO you can never be too prepared for what the casino is going to throw at you as far as distraction. Practice your counting drills with as much distraction as possible (radio, tv, children, gf talking, etc). Also, deal yourself hands at different speeds and practice playing your hands and adding up the totals while counting (dealers each have different speed and delivery). For me the hands that gave me trouble where soft hands and the small pairs, so I just delt myself these hands against the dealers upcard X and practiced adding the total while still keeping the running count until it became second nature.

4.) Once you think your ready for the big show, and you can count like a pro and keep a surface level conversation going without missing a beat, i recommend first start out backcounting tables, once you think you have this down, try your hand playing at low limits. This may take a while to get comfortable keeping an accurate count in the casino, but if you lose the count you know your not quite their yet...so back to the table in your kitchen for more practice...

5.) When you can do all of the above, start trainging yourself to count down multiple tables at a time..

Hope this helps.
 
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#4
also....

practice counting down a single deck starting at different counts ie. -15, 21, -13, 17....and see how you do. after i was able to count down a single deck in less than 30 seconds starting at zero i practiced starting at random numbers and found that it was like starting over in a way, for some reason. the point is to become comfortable at all different count levels one would normally have at the casino. it took me some more practice, but now i am accurate and consistent with speed no matter what number i start at.
 
#5
A big thanks to the both of you. I feel like the Casino Verite demo has knocked my ego down a bit. I kept on losing the count, it's more different then I thought that it would be. Tanks again. Just some terms that I don't understand. What are I18 and Fab 4. I googled both but nothing came up, if someone could point me in the right direction that would be great. Just one more term. What would a fractional Kelly Bankroll be, I googled that to but I didn't really find anything on that either. Again, a point in the right direction would be appreciated.
 
#6
Applesaus said:
A big thanks to the both of you. I feel like the Casino Verite demo has knocked my ego down a bit. I kept on losing the count, it's more different then I thought that it would be. Tanks again. Just some terms that I don't understand. What are I18 and Fab 4. I googled both but nothing came up, if someone could point me in the right direction that would be great. Just one more term. What would a fractional Kelly Bankroll be, I googled that to but I didn't really find anything on that either. Again, a point in the right direction would be appreciated.
These are the index plays that are most profitable due to a combination of frequency of use and value in EV. I18 is illustrious 18, they are insurance and non surrender plays. Fab 4 is fabulous 4, they are the most valuable surrender indices (all surrender indices are important. When you have max bet out you want the highest EV). Side counts are best left until much later. The most useful side counts are aces and sevens. It is best to use these advanced strategies for 1 and 2 deck games. They have a lesser value in shoe games and most of that comes late in the shoe. Most people have trouble being confident that they are accurate with the side count after 3 or 4 decks.
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
#7
Applesaus said:
Hello everyone,
I'm new to card counting and I have a few questions that some people might have answers to. Firstly, let me explain my situation, I'm 16 years old, so i have just under two years before I am legally allowed into my local casinos, and just recently (about two weeks ago) the idea of counting came to me. Since then, I have mastered basic strategy, and I can count a deck of cards using Hi/Lo in about 30 seconds. From what I've picked up this is quite a fast pace to be learning at, and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on where I should go from here. I was thinking either learning a level two count or adding a 10 side count to my Hi/Lo. Any suggestions and/or other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Yes, get a $50,000 bankroll or figure out how to turn <$50K into >$50K pretty quickly. Without it you don't have a chance as expenses and variance will crush you.
 

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#8
bigplayer said:
Yes, get a $50,000 bankroll or figure out how to turn <$50K into >$50K pretty quickly. Without it you don't have a chance as expenses and variance will crush you.
Don't sugar-coat it, now.

There are those who have red-chipped their way to green goodness, but it involves sharing a studio apartment or a trailer, or living in the dumpster behind the adult bookstore, and lots of Ramen.

Expenses for travel and lodging add an appreciable amount to your risk of ruin.

1/3 Kelly, anyone?
 

BrianCP

Well-Known Member
#9
Friendo said:
Don't sugar-coat it, now.

There are those who have red-chipped their way to green goodness, but it involves sharing a studio apartment or a trailer, or living in the dumpster behind the adult bookstore, and lots of Ramen.

Expenses for travel and lodging add an appreciable amount to your risk of ruin.

1/3 Kelly, anyone?
Let's cut that bankroll down to 5k for a second. We will probably be talking about a situation much closer to my situation when he does turn 18. Not a whole lot of money, but able to work his way to 5k (which I realize must sound like a lot right now).

He'll be going to college (I assume) and probably have a lot of his expenses payed for (go 2 parents with MBA's!). This means it isn't about making enough to support himself, it is about casually building up a bankroll over his college years.

Now if you won't have the ability to get a 5k bankroll that you can sustain during college (much more likely), you will have to operate on a replenish-able bankroll. That is to say, take your income for the month, subtract your expenses (remember to minimize these!) and this is your monthly bankroll. You can afford to lose this and still pay for everything you need to.

Your risk of losing it all will be much higher at a minimum bet level than if you had a 1000 unit bankroll, but this is okay given the fact that you will have a new bankroll in a month.

Eventually, the positive variance will bring you to a bankroll that you won't need to refill ever again, assuming you keep it at the $5 min bet level until you can raise it according the 1/4 kelly betting.

If you don't plan on going to college, get the best job you can right now and always be watching for better ones. Don't go out to eat with friends, don't drive if you have to pay for gas, wait for your birthday and Christmas for any gifts.

Spend your first few paychecks on 76 decks of cards and the QFIT software. Why 76 decks? Because you can make half deck piles of cards to practice your deck estimating. You can make every pile in half deck increments from 8 decks down to half a deck. You'll also have 8 decks left over for practice at home with real cards.

Then, save all your money and do as Big Player says.
 

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#10
BrianCP said:
Your risk of losing it all will be much higher at a minimum bet level than if you had a 1000 unit bankroll, but this is okay given the fact that you will have a new bankroll in a month.

Eventually, the positive variance will bring you to a bankroll that you won't need to refill ever again, assuming you keep it at the $5 min bet level until you can raise it according the 1/4 kelly betting.
Yes. For anyone able to consistently raise a trip bankroll, over and over, this makes sense: eventually, the law of large numbers will float one of those trip bankrolls into permanent positive territory.
 
#11
As useful as all of your information is, dont you think you are overloading him with information.

My point is one does not learn trigonometry before one learns how to add and subtract.

The same could be said for counting. He has a full two years to learn as much as he can.

Overloading as brain, especially one as young as his with kelly 50k banks and what not starts to be very self-defeating, not that it is not superb information.
 

Coyote

Well-Known Member
#12
bigplayer said:
Yes, get a $50,000 bankroll or figure out how to turn <$50K into >$50K pretty quickly. Without it you don't have a chance as expenses and variance will crush you.
Since the OP is so young, this is the best advice.

Applesaus, start banking money yesterday! Do not get into debt, and keep practicing! Read about, and study the game as much as you can.

Best of Luck to you!

Coyote
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#13
bigplayer said:
Yes, get a $50,000 bankroll or figure out how to turn <$50K into >$50K pretty quickly. Without it you don't have a chance as expenses and variance will crush you.
Perhaps my favorite, poster. Almost always gives great advise. If you follow nothing, but his advise, you would be in pretty good shape. :) And this isn't 'bad' advise, except....aren't we jumping the gun here, BP? Did I miss the OP stating his goal was to play professionally, semi-professional or support himself from this venture?? :confused: I got the impression he was just interested in learning to play with an advantage. Hobby/part-time type of deal. I don't think you need to raise 50 grand for that.
 
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#14
More questions

Ok, so I found the I18 index and the fab 4 index, and it talks about an Index Value, is this just the TC or is it a side count value. and if it's a side count, how would i count it?
Also, just some terms,
OP
CSM
AC (I feel as though i saw this, but maybe not)

And finally, two more things
1. Are there any milestones/ways to know that I am actually getting better
and
2. Not that it really matters but how do you make a signature

Thanks in Advance.
 

jaygruden

Well-Known Member
#15
OP = Original Poster (that's you in this thread)
CSM = Continuous Shuffle Machine (stay the h*ll away from them)
AC = Atlantic City, NJ (or Air Conditioning, depending on context):grin:
 
#16
jaygruden said:
OP = Original Poster (that's you in this thread)
CSM = Continuous Shuffle Machine (stay the h*ll away from them)
AC = Atlantic City, NJ (or Air Conditioning, depending on context):grin:
Thanks for the fast reply
 

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#17
Applesaus said:
Ok, so I found the I18 index and the fab 4 index, and it talks about an Index Value, is this just the TC or is it a side count value. and if it's a side count, how would i count it?
Also, just some terms,
OP
CSM
AC (I feel as though i saw this, but maybe not)
:laugh:

Doesn't matter: if you don't bother to read at least two blackjack books - in which case you'd know the answers to your questions - you're going to get killed at the tables anyway. Any decent book which describes a counting system should tell you what you need to know about index play, as well as other things to prevent you from getting your clock cleaned.

Repeat after me: (i) read two blackjack books; (ii) buy Casino Verite and practice 50 hours ; (iii) read most of the archives on this site.

(You can skip the threads started by new members wanting quick answers to their questions without doing the work - those threads go nowhere.)
 
#18
Just so that you know, there are over 100, 000 posts in this forum, it might be a bit hard for me to read all of them.
Also, I know basic strategy, and I know that in most games the casino edge is less then one percent, so it's not like I "would get my clock clean" I'm young, not stupid. So thanks for assuming that I know nothing. And you could tell me that it would be best to read 2 or 3 books on the subject so that I would be more knowledgeable on the subject and maybe suggest one. But telling me that I'm going to get killed without one is not only an over-exaggeration, but also not that helpful. So thanks for all your help.
 
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jaygruden

Well-Known Member
#19
Applesaus said:
Just so that you know, there are over 100, 000 posts in this forum, it might be a bit hard for me to read all of them.
Yea, if you're a slacker.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

OP,

You are 16 years old. Are you even allowed to be on this message board? Doesn't Ken make people verify that they are adults before joining? Don't you need parental supervision to be reading this stuff:grin:

All joking aside, you came on a board and asked some questions. Consider yourself lucky that you got those questions answered. Relax about the way they were answered and don't let it damage your ego.
 
#20
For learning the workings of the game read The Theory of Blackjack and then the more in depth Blackjack Attack Third Edition. The latter has many very applicable chapters to increasing profit in the casino. The former is a great tutorial on exactly why you do things and how they are derived. The latter uses this as a start and extends it much, much further and then goes beyond the math to maximizing your profits with this knowledge.
 
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