backed off

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#3
I've asked a similar question before - those that state to have been shown the door don't seem to be too forthcoming about the circumstances (what put the flags up, how much interest was being taken by the floor staff in how they were playing, whether it was just a matter of getting a ". . . your membership is cancelled forthwith" letter in the post etc).

As I've only been looking at BJ for a couple of months, my time at the tables is quite limited. Having said that, from what I saw on my visits I think you'd have to wear a luminous green shirt with a bright orange "C", and have an abacus on the table, before any of the staff realised that there was someone at the table counting. Everyone from the other side of the tables seemed far more concerned with spotting dealer and payout errors, than in taking notice in who was playing and how.

Where I played nobody bet anything over 25% of the (very modest) table max, and I think do so will cause someone to stand out like a pair of bulldog's.
But in order to get a reasonable return for a "pro" I would think that you'd have to be betting at least 50% in order to justify the time - again that would be very unusual and would get you noticed. So, although just my opinion based on what I've seen, I would think you'd have to do something pretty stupid and stand out in order to see your membership disappear into the ether.

What's the betting I get zapped on my next visit ?

Newb99
 
#4
Thanks Newbb

yeah i kinda thought it would be difficult enough to be backed off...I'd say drunkeness would be more of a risk...

how many tables is there in your casino? the last time i went to a glasgow casino on a sat nite there was only 1 table open!! hard to wong in on that.

I'm going to try a ace 10 front count on my next visit just to try it out..betting £25 a bet..

you tried this system?
 
#5
newb99 said:
What's the betting I get zapped on my next visit ?
Well just don't go wearing that luminous green shirt with a bright orange "C" and I think you'll be fine :laugh:

Jinkybhoy, http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2559 have a look there..there's a little discussion about your count :) I have the same problem with tables, there is only one table which uses a shoe..and that is late at night Fri Sat and Sun and two others CSM! They only ever seem to have the shoe game when its especially busy. However, and strangely enough, there always seems to be more empty seats at the shoe game as oposed to the CSM games. I'm in Newcastle playing at Aspers.

Si
 

eandre

Well-Known Member
#6
I can not speak to the UK but I assure you, backoffs are for real. I doubt that anyone who has been backed off is being less than honest when they can not sight an exact reason. First, the pit is not the bigger problem, upstairs is normally the culprit. They watch for small opening bets, spreads progressing near end of shoe, experienced plays like properly spliting 9's or correct insurance plays or spreading to 2 hands when the count warrants. They simply notify management and they decide. My guess is over exposure, playing too often or too long in 1 location is probably the primary problem, even if you are good.
True, if you never press any real money, most casino's will not bother even if they suspect. But things change, management changes and as revenues drop, they will protect the bottom line and bounce more counters.
The last 4-5 months, heat has risen in the high stakes pits. I used to think that anyone who could count and talk and be friendly to the pit was impervious to getting caught.
Recently, I was backed off a $15 table at a large property that I played for years with impunity...years. My spread was huge, but it has always been that way. Management's quote was "Things change" The bearer of bad news was a shift manager that I had come to know over the past 5 years. It was a management decision.
 

jay28

Well-Known Member
#7
newb99 said:
As I've only been looking at BJ for a couple of months, my time at the tables is quite limited. Having said that, from what I saw on my visits I think you'd have to wear a luminous green shirt with a bright orange "C", and have an abacus on the table, before any of the staff realised that there was someone at the table counting. Everyone from the other side of the tables seemed far more concerned with spotting dealer and payout errors, than in taking notice in who was playing and how.


Newb99
I agree with newb99 on this, it seems pretty hard to get backed off in the UK, I've been spreading up to 20 units, (My unit is £5) on table limits of £1 - £100 with no problems, I've even been dropping down to a £1 during negative counts when I not really able to wong out, with no problems. I've got away with wonging out whilst sitting at the table by saying things like "I'll skip a few hands", "no just won two" or "no just lose two", "Not feeling lucky this time" then carrying on when the count raises, with nobody caring (apart from the odd ploppie). I've had the occasional look from the pit after winning table max (although its rare the counts good enough, that I'm spreading that much anyway) but found it nothing to worry about. It feels even safer late at night when the Chinese's ploppies are in and pretty much betting table max every hand with stacks of £1 chips.

But yeah, newb99's right, the pits definitely seem more concerned about dealer errors then anything else.

It seems like its a free for all at the moment, but maybe I'm just lucky and playing at the right places?
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#8
David Pom, aka "Casino_Barred".

These boards use to have a contributer (forum handle David Pom) who told his story of having been barred from every casino in Great Britain. He doesn't visit anymore as a result of a drubbing he got from some of the board elders from the other side of the pond over some questionable advice he handed out to someone about the tables to play (limit-wise) with a fairly modest bankroll. That and a general level of sceptisicm over his claim to have been barred from "every" casino.

His story goes that basically after many years patronising establishments in Britain (and taking around £12K a year out of them), within a period of a week he found he was refused entry from all of the places where he held membership, despite always having previously been a welcomed ,regular visitor. After kicking up a fuss, he did eventually receive confirmation in writing from all of the companies running these places that his membership had indeed been recinded, but not giving the reason for doing so.

Unbelievable? I don't think so. The vast majority of casinos in Britain are operated by just a few companies and I'm sure they all speak to each other. What's more important to ask is the reason why it happened?

Was he guilty of winning too much? Of being caught counting? If he'd done it for years there's no reason to think he'd suddendly become stupid and started counting out loud? Or was it possibly him upsetting someone who worked for one of the casinos who made a point of getting even? Arguing the toss over something (and winning) with the duty manager in front of all of the junior staff probably isn't a good idea anywhere if you have aspirations of returning. Perhaps he was rude to one of the waitresses that the boss was jumping. It could have been something as simple as someone with a grudge just grassing him up - I would think in the UK the worst thing you could do to a professional gambler is to get him/her barred from every racecourse in the country. It'd be a bit like cutting the index fingers off of a concert pianist's hands - he'd still be able to play the joanna, but sure as s#it he's going to struggle to continue making a living at it. Could have been anything. Perhaps he had enemies? Who knows??

I think the moral of this posting is that not being stupid, not taking the pi$$ when spreading bets, not consistently betting many times the next biggest wager on the felt or standing out from the masses generally is no guarantee of a permanently warm welcome. Others with a grudge could conspire to ruin your day - all it takes is a 'phone call??????

:-(

Newb99
 

jay28

Well-Known Member
#9
David Pom or David Wong?

Sure Newb, I hear what your saying, it sounds like it would be a pain in the A*** to be David Pom. However, if he really wanted to get back in, he could change his name with a solicitor for £30 and apply for a new passport for £80, then rejoin with his new ID. As long as he then played in different casino buildings, he could carry on with no problems, he might even need to change his looks, beard, haircut, whatever, until he aged a bit and naturally looked different. This might sound a bit drastic but if he loved the game and his income depended on it, then its not that much of a major hassle. I know several people who have done this for other reasons mainly debt problems, marriage, etc. with no hassles. So surely doing this to play in casino's would be far easier?

You never know, maybe David Pom is now David Wong?


Also, The ID, Photo & Member thing is a legal issue in the UK, to try to help combat gambling addiction, so I'm not sure if this information can be shared from casino to casino or company to company, I would imagine this information it is covered by data protection and therefore can not be passed on to different organisations. Does anyone know for sure?

I was told recently (Since they stepped up the ID thing) by a casino manager that they could still let a new member in on their discretion, with no ID but they would have certain limits, such as not being able to cash out over £1k in 1 visit. I don't know how common this is though?
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#10
I think the casino manager is probably right. The matter of membership is a private house issue, I don't think it's a legal requirement (in the same way that it's not to go into a betting shop in the highstreet). The requirement to ID individuals changing up over a grand's worth of chips is at least intimated (if not stated directly) within the money laundering regs - ie "reasonable" steps should be taken to positively identify individuals carrying out "significant" transactions in order to satisfy the requirements of the regs and to avoid the risk of falling foul of them (for bankers, accountants, money transfer agents, stock brokers, gaming establishments etc etc).

Data Protection Act? I'm reasonably sure when you take up membership of these places in the small print is the usual gumpf about the house being authorised to make personal information of members available to other similar parties in order to protect against fraud, money laundering and other potentially criminal activities. A nice little catch all. Effectively it leaves the DPA not worth the paper it's written on.

I believe Mr P left the UK and now lives somewhere where he can play the local casinos with a degree of impunity - although he refuses to say where in case his past catches up with him.

Newb99
 
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