"back betting" - help please?

jee_pack

Well-Known Member
#1
Hi, I've wanted to do some research on backbetting for a while but I don't even know if it's worth it. You know when you have the possibility of standing behind people playing and betting behind their bets... I know it's not usually a good thing to bet like that because (even if the player was playing perfect basic strategy) the payouts aren't exactly the same... As a matter of fact, I don't know exactly how different are the payouts, so this is something I need help with also, I'm also confused as to can we double when they want to hit, can we not double if they double, or what happens if they split, can you play the first hand only or do you have no choice to play both hands by adding to your original bet... etc.... BUT THE MAIN QUESTION IS THIS: Is it possible to ever yeild an advantage with this kind of betting (assuming the players are all playing perfect BS)??? I mean, if the TC gets to 5 for instance, I know that the people playing at the table have approximatly a 2% advantage on the house, but what about the people who are betting behind these players? Do they yeild some kind of advantage, or are they still suckers that are playing with a negetive expectation?????????

Thanks in advance
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#2
jee_pack said:
I'm also confused as to can we double when they want to hit, can we not double if they double
I believe you both have to agree to double or hit. You both have to make the same play in this case.

jee_pack said:
or what happens if they split, can you play the first hand only or do you have no choice to play both hands by adding to your original bet
In this case you can decide if you want to split of not. If not, the other player will bet on the second hand and you will be stuck on the first hand only. If the other player doesn’t want to split and you do then you may be in trouble.

jee_pack said:
Is it possible to ever yeild an advantage with this kind of betting (assuming the players are all playing perfect BS)???
This type of strategy, often called “backline” or “rider” strategy, can add a small amount to your EV due to the decisions of when to bet on the second split hand or not. This strategy can be improved if you have a partner playing the hand and following Wong’s Sacrifice Split strategy from Basic Blackjack. However, I believe the maximum benefit is around 0.2% for the rider.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=4429

-Sonny-
 
Last edited:

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#3
Sonny said:
I believe you both have to agree to double or hit. You both have to make the same play in this case.
It makes sense that you can't double if they hit, but I don't know if they can make you double if you don't want to. What if you don't have any money left?
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#4
ScottH said:
It makes sense that you can't double if they hit, but I don't know if they can make you double if you don't want to. What if you don't have any money left?
You don't have to put the extra bet down, but you'll only get one card either way. You won't be able to hit again after the other person doubles. :mad:

-Sonny-
 
#5
The backline rules as observed at Foxwoods are as follows:

The seated player makes all hit/stand decisions.

The seated player may or may not choose to double down. If he chooses to double, only one more card will be dealt to the hand. The backlining player may or may not double his bet if the seated player chooses to double.

Either player may surrender. The surrendering player will receive half of his bet back. The hand will be played out as the non-surrendering player chooses, or the hand will be mucked if both players surrender.

Either player may place sidebets including insurance. A backlining player must be in the blackjack part of the hand to play any sidebet.

The seated player may choose to split. If he splits, the backlining player may or may not place an additional bet to split. If the backlining player chooses not to split, his bet is moved to the half of the split that he and the seated player agree to and the hand is played out. This applies to resplits too.
 

jee_pack

Well-Known Member
#6
really! Before I asked about this I thought backlining was not a good thing, I thought you couldn't make any decisions at all.... But now...

Do you get paid 3:2 on a backline bet if the hand is a blackjack?
 
#7
jee_pack said:
really! Before I asked about this I thought backlining was not a good thing, I thought you couldn't make any decisions at all.... But now...

Do you get paid 3:2 on a backline bet if the hand is a blackjack?
Yes, of course, you get paid just as the seated hand is paid.

Backlining can add a significant amount to EV if the seated player knows what he or she is doing. If he's just playing Basic Strategy you can decline to take the defensive splits and that alone is helpful. If the seated player is a confederate (or a reliable Yankee) he can be playing a special split strategy designed to maximize the EV of the backlining player, who will of course be betting much more than the seated player.

Usually it is a bad idea to backline a stranger. Most do not play even correct Basic Strategy and that will lose you more than the split option wil gain you. There have also been cases of seated players blackmailing backliners.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#8
Automatic Monkey said:
The backline rules as observed at Foxwoods are as follows:

The seated player makes all hit/stand decisions.

The seated player may or may not choose to double down. If he chooses to double, only one more card will be dealt to the hand. The backlining player may or may not double his bet if the seated player chooses to double.

Either player may surrender. The surrendering player will receive half of his bet back. The hand will be played out as the non-surrendering player chooses, or the hand will be mucked if both players surrender.

Either player may place sidebets including insurance. A backlining player must be in the blackjack part of the hand to play any sidebet.

The seated player may choose to split. If he splits, the backlining player may or may not place an additional bet to split. If the backlining player chooses not to split, his bet is moved to the half of the split that he and the seated player agree to and the hand is played out. This applies to resplits too.
That last rule surprises me. I would think the house would want a standing rule as to which split the backbettor takes if he chooses to only do one.

A question-I'm backbetting.Get a pair of 8s. Player splits,can I just bet the first one and see how it plays out before deciding if I want to cover the second one,as well?
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
shadroch said:
A question-I'm backbetting.Get a pair of 8s. Player splits,can I just bet the first one and see how it plays out before deciding if I want to cover the second one,as well?
Unless you're at the end of a deck and the count has moved outrageosly in one direction or the other, I don't think the decision would matter? Would you generally want to bet money on 8 vs 10? The answer is always no. Would you want to bet on 8 vs a 6? The answer is always yes.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#10
shadroch said:
A question-I'm backbetting.Get a pair of 8s. Player splits,can I just bet the first one and see how it plays out before deciding if I want to cover the second one,as well?
No, you have to decide right away before you see any of the hit cards. But knowing your first card against the dealer's upcard is enough info to make that decision.

-Sonny-
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#11
i've always thought of backline betting as a good option when one is back counting a crowded table. but then you want the seated player to be a proficient basic strategy player. the rub is he would likely not make proper basic strategy departures.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#12
EasyRhino said:
Unless you're at the end of a deck and the count has moved outrageosly in one direction or the other, I don't think the decision would matter? Would you generally want to bet money on 8 vs 10? The answer is always no. Would you want to bet on 8 vs a 6? The answer is always yes.
I was wondering about doing this with a very limited bankroll.Say you have only two bets left. Pair of 8s vs a 6. Do you bet both or bet the first and wait to see if you catch a 2 or a 3 for a DD situation. Rare circumstance,but play long enough and it will come up.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#13
You know, I've had vaguely similar things happen online when playing very aggressively. Have two hands out, one needs to get split, the other needs a doubledown, but I only have enough funds to do one or the other (and I'm not in a situation where redepositing is smart).

Of course, in those situations, I can leisurely look up the EVs of both scenarios and see what gives me the best bang for the buck.
 

paymypush

Well-Known Member
#14
After doing away with it about seven years ago, Foxwoods is once again offering back betting. It's also called backlining or backline betting. Don't get excited as it's only on the two remaining $1 games. They must be losing money on them.

Funny though, when they abolished backlining they said it was because of arguments between players. I guess they think everyone will play nice at these games. The original abolishment couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that the game was exploitable could it. Nah.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#15
paymypush said:
After doing away with it about seven years ago, Foxwoods is once again offering back betting. It's also called backlining or backline betting. Don't get excited as it's only on the two remaining $1 games. They must be losing money on them.

Funny though, when they abolished backlining they said it was because of arguments between players. I guess they think everyone will play nice at these games. The original abolishment couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that the game was exploitable could it. Nah.
There's no way they lost money on backline exploitation. It's only reduces the house edge very slightly, and is easy to spot. There were certainly arguments and unpleasantness, which is understandable, as well as a greater chance of dealer error, but the amount of extra action available is tremendous. I expect they'll gradually bring it back, if they're really experimenting with it.
 

Meistro

Well-Known Member
#16
I do not recommend back betting on anyone except a confederate. IIRC the sacrifice split strategy is basically for the small bet to almost always split.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#17
Definitely not!

The small (main) bet always plays usual basic strategy, since there's no other choice there. The backline splits offensive splits only. I have the S17 chart somewhere, anyone have the H17 (if any different)? I can't remember the edge - it was fairly small (definitely doesn't go EV+) but worthwhile if you're in the right situation. On the other hand, since it consumes two people, it's probably just better for them to bet/count independently if they are capable of doing so.

I like this strategy for playing with a trusted civilian buddy, who flat bets small and plays BS, and you selectively back-bet per the count. This gives a little cover for the sporadic back-bettor, and the split benefit is a nice little bonus.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#20
Ah, found my spreadsheet. I can't remember who made it, but it's similar to WOO but includes the percentage of front-to-back bet to decide when front should split. This ratio dictates whether they should follow BS or do a split for the benefit of the back bettor. I can PM it to those who want it.
 
Top