NJ amateur counter/player looking for guidance

#1
Hello world, I am a new member to these forums and am in great interest persuing card counting and team play etc etc but I can only teach myself so much. I have no idea where to find other counters or experienced peoples, I'd much like to even possibly set up a team but I will admit the obvious of being a little naive. Much thanks and so forth.
 

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
#2
Welcome. Search this site, read all the books you can by Wong, Scheslinger, Snyder found on this site here http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/ and practice using software from qfit.com found on this site here http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/ and ask questions and make relationships through this site and you'll do just fine.

Quite a few words of warning. CC'ing is no get rich quick scheme. This takes a tremendous amount of knowledge, dedication, time, patience and to a lesser extent money. Playing with such a small edge as cc'ing is rewarding but is like trying to fill a dried up lake a few drops of water per minute. If the weather cooperates the lake will be filled in 5-10 years as long as the water doesn't evaporate faster than it fills the voids. Sometimes storms will help you fill the lake quickly but other times you'll be kicking yourself after the sun comes out for months at a time and puts you right back where you started. And if you don't pay attention and follow the instructions on how to fill the lake exactly, you end up shutting off the flow of water completely.

This is a marathon, not a race. If you have the patience, stick around and enjoy the wild ride. If not, take up poker.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#3
Welcome to the board Jyn8923. I don't know about that whole lake thing that HockeXpert has going on. I half expected him to want the lake to freeze over, so he could play ice hockey. :laugh: (Just kidding Hockey) But he certainly is correct that there is a lot to learn from this site and it's many knowledgeable members who are willing to share their knowledge and experiences.

I am curious, if you don't mind me asking as to what peeked your interest in card counting? I ask because for a couple years there after the movie 21 came out and again when it went to cable/video, we had quite a few new members who became interested after seeing it. I am just wondering what might direct someone's interest in this direction today?
 

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
#4
kewljason said:
I don't know about that whole lake thing that HockeXpert has going on. I half expected him to want the lake to freeze over, so he could play ice hockey. :laugh:
Lmfao. Good one KJ! I spit my uppers half way across the room.
 

tensplitter

Well-Known Member
#5
Before you place a bet, practice counting through a deck of cards, then count 8 decks. You can either do it with physical decks or with software like Casino Verite. Once you can count a deck in less than 30 seconds, you're good to go to a casino.

Go to Atlantic City and sit down at a busy blackjack table with a good penetration. Count through several shoes without placing a bet, making sure to calculate the true count every round. Try to do it while talking to other players and the dealer. Then after your third shoe, count shoe #4 and place a minimum bet when the count is positive and don't bet when the count is negative. Keep doing that for a few shoes. Then double your bet when the true count is over +2. After you're comfortable with 2x min, bet 4x the min when the true count is over +3. Remember you're still playing only the positive counts to minimize your variance. Then bet 8x min when the true count is over +5, which will be rare in Atlantic City shoe games.

They can't back you off for counting in AC, and they won't notice a red chipper like you spreading 1-8 and wonging.

When you gain more experience and confidence, you could try playing all and spreading 1-15 if you have the bankroll or wonging out at -2 and spreading 1-10. Then milk the games in Pennsylvania if you're close to a store in PA.
 

southAP

Well-Known Member
#6
Jyn8923 said:
Hello world, I am a new member to these forums and am in great interest persuing card counting and team play etc etc but I can only teach myself so much. I have no idea where to find other counters or experienced peoples, I'd much like to even possibly set up a team but I will admit the obvious of being a little naive. Much thanks and so forth.
Like the others have said, it takes lots of patients and lots of mental and emotional endurance, plus a pretty sizeable bankroll for swings, which you will have especially since your skills most likely arent 100%. Another question besides how you started is, what have you learned so far? Basic strategy is essential to minimizing the house edge, so that should be the first thing you master. THEN learn a counting system, hi lo, ko, zen etc etc.... Then learn indexes for hit and stand soft 17. nce you master all three then you'll be set. Oh I should mention about true counts but I dont know what system you are using.

As of now dont worry about a team, if you can though, find an experienced AP who is willing to teach you personally, kind of like a blackjack apprentice. Most questions you have can be answered just by searching the threads on here. Good luck! :)
 
#7
I'm currently reading black belt in blackjack by Arnold snyder and beat the dealer by none other than Edward thorp. I have knowledge of red 7, high lo lite, omega 2, and that's kinda it. I do not know the strategies involved however to be used with the count, the betting I do slightly. I'm not fond of snyder's vagueness in explain some tables and how to read them. His basic strategy table is fine but some of the others I'm honestly a little lost. I do have basic strategy nailed down to more of instinct but have yet to memorize and reproduce from memory. (it's on my to do list). Serious bankroll starts next summer as I am an apprenticing tattoo artist and will be making frequent ac trips like once a week or so. (my apprenticeship will be completed by then, no I'm not an artist for the money I inheritly love it, but the money is a cherry I must say). Like I said previously though I would like to find someone to apprentice under persay for blackjack and CCing, and shuffle tracking.
 

southAP

Well-Known Member
#8
Jyn8923 said:
I'm currently reading black belt in blackjack by Arnold snyder and beat the dealer by none other than Edward thorp. I have knowledge of red 7, high lo lite, omega 2, and that's kinda it. I do not know the strategies involved however to be used with the count, the betting I do slightly. I'm not fond of snyder's vagueness in explain some tables and how to read them. His basic strategy table is fine but some of the others I'm honestly a little lost. I do have basic strategy nailed down to more of instinct but have yet to memorize and reproduce from memory. (it's on my to do list). Serious bankroll starts next summer as I am an apprenticing tattoo artist and will be making frequent ac trips like once a week or so. (my apprenticeship will be completed by then, no I'm not an artist for the money I inheritly love it, but the money is a cherry I must say). Like I said previously though I would like to find someone to apprentice under persay for blackjack and CCing, and shuffle tracking.
have you landed on which count system you wanted to learn, Hi-Lo is by far the easiest to learn and effective if done 100% accurate. There are 2 different types of BS on for H17(hit soft 17) and S17(stand soft 17) the only differences in them are A,8 and 11. S17 A,8 you would stand where as H17 you would DD. 11 in S17 you would hit in H17 you would DD. As for reproducing it from memory, try dealing to yourself at home until you can recal them in a split second. If you just go playing like this at the casino, you wont win any money but it will reduce the house edge to about .5% and you will get the table experience. Honestly i wouldnt even sit at the table until i also mastered the other 2.

Shuffle Tracking is a more advanced stategy that requires you to know a count system, especially with slug tracking which you cant do much of anymore because the slugs get plugged into different part if the discarded cards. Its also a very dangerous thing to do if you only learn enough to be confident and not actually master.
 

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#9
Jyn8923 said:
I'm currently reading black belt in blackjack by Arnold snyder and beat the dealer by none other than Edward thorp. I have knowledge of red 7, high lo lite, omega 2, and that's kinda it. I do not know the strategies involved however to be used with the count, the betting I do slightly. I'm not fond of snyder's vagueness in explain some tables and how to read them. His basic strategy table is fine but some of the others I'm honestly a little lost. I do have basic strategy nailed down to more of instinct but have yet to memorize and reproduce from memory. (it's on my to do list). Serious bankroll starts next summer as I am an apprenticing tattoo artist and will be making frequent ac trips like once a week or so. (my apprenticeship will be completed by then, no I'm not an artist for the money I inheritly love it, but the money is a cherry I must say). Like I said previously though I would like to find someone to apprentice under persay for blackjack and CCing, and shuffle tracking.
IMO, those books suck if you want to learn the finer intricacies of counting cards in modern casinos. On a happier note, I live in central NJ off rt 9 so pm me if you want to chat. I also own a bj felt and shoe, and I know a great place to practice
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#10
Once you've posted to this site ten or more times, you'll earn the right to send private messages (PM's) to other members. I know of people who are always looking for personnel for their teams, so if you get to the point where you're allowed to PM me, I might be able to help get you set up. BTW; your skill level is NOT the most important thing that these people are looking for, believe it or not.
 
#11
Ferretnparrot said:
IMO, those books suck if you want to learn the finer intricacies of counting cards in modern casinos. On a happier note, I live in central NJ off rt 9 so pm me if you want to chat. I also own a bj felt and shoe, and I know a great place to practice
Holy **** me too I don't care nor worry about meeting ppl in person(I'm a marine so I can handle myself ( always be cautious know what I mean)) I'd be very gracious to sit down every so often and learn/play with you. I'm actually very happy to find someone locally who knows more than I do lol. Well I'm spazzing a bit on this one o well lol it's late and tequila has been involved no worries.
 

Tico

Well-Known Member
#12

Ferretnparrot:

IMO, those books suck if you want to learn the finer intricacies of counting cards in modern casinos. On a happier note, I live in central NJ off rt 9 so pm me if you want to chat. I also own a bj felt and shoe, and I know a great place to practice

Jyn8923:

Holy **** me too I don't care nor worry about meeting ppl in person(I'm a marine so I can handle myself ( always be cautious know what I mean)) I'd be very gracious to sit down every so often and learn/play with you. I'm actually very happy to find someone locally who knows more than I do lol. Well I'm spazzing a bit on this one o well lol it's late and tequila has been involved no worries.

Jyn, please choose your options carefully before you invest your valuable time to get a "PhD" in anything (i.e: 1) lawyering, 2) doctoring, 3) Wall-Street-gambling, 4) casino-gambling, etc...).


Options:
1) Lawyer
A good counselor usually makes about 400,000 bucks annually. The best probably makes a hell lot more.

2) Doctor
MD with good practice makes an average of $500,000 a year. The best probably makes a hell lot more.

3) Day-trader
A decent Wall-Street gambler makes around $80,000 a year. The best ("with connections") probably makes a hell lot more.


4) BJ Gambler aka BJ-AP
Never mind how much an AP makes. The best AP quits, and that tells you a lot! i.e., Arnold quits BJ & goes for poker, Edward Thorp quits BJ & goes for Wall Street gambling, etc... You can find the reasons why by inferring from these quotes:


In the case of Card-Counter-Thomas-Donovan vs Grand Victoria Casino, Justice Dickson wrote :

"I disagree with the Court‟s foundational premise that gambling casinos are entitled to the same common law right of arbitrary exclusion as possessed by proprietors of conventional businesses at common law.

...Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators. I am not persuaded that such schemes are supported or protected by any common law right or privilege...

...I find that targeting unskilled blackjack players and excluding gifted ones is grossly incompatible with the integrity of the game.

...Grand Victoria should not be allowed to exclude the plaintiff from playing blackjack simply because the casino fears that he may be exceptionally good at it."



Grasshopper, choose your options wisely...your wrong choice will waste your time and money ;):rolleyes:. Good luck to you.



 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#13
Tico said:
Jyn, please choose your options carefully before you invest your valuable time to get a "PhD" in anything (i.e: 1) lawyering, 2) doctoring, 3) Wall-Street-gambling, 4) casino-gambling, etc...).


Options:
1) Lawyer
A good counselor usually makes about 400,000 bucks annually. The best probably makes a hell lot more.

2) Doctor
MD with good practice makes an average of $500,000 a year. The best probably makes a hell lot more.

3) Day-trader
A decent Wall-Street gambler makes around $80,000 a year. The best ("with connections") probably makes a hell lot more.


4) BJ Gambler aka BJ-AP
Never mind how much an AP makes. The best AP quits, and that tells you a lot! i.e., Arnold quits BJ & goes for poker, Edward Thorp quits BJ & goes for Wall Street gambling,
Where did this nonsense come from? :confused: The guy is currently an apprentice tattoo artist and you are telling him to become a lawyer or doctor. :laugh: Is he suppossed to click his heals together three times while wishing for that? You conveniently neglected to mention that becoming a lawyer or doctor takes a decade or more of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars. :eek:

As for day traders, I see and have heard of more people getting out of that than into it right now. And I am talking experienced people that knew what they where doing and did quite well for a number of years.

If you are strickly talking money, the best option is to go into politics. :eek: Anyone who is a senator or congressman for just a few years seems to have their wealth grow many, many times greater than it should based on their pay rate. :laugh: How does that happen and why is it rarely spoken about?

"the best AP quits" :confused: I guess eventually. Everyone quits whatever they are doing eventually. You mentioned one particular player, arnold. Thorp was never a professional AP. He was and is a mathematician who set out to prove some theories about blackjack.
 

tensplitter

Well-Known Member
#15
The best blackjack players don't quit by choice, they get barred from blackjack and placed in the Griffin book.

You also forgot to mention professional sports bettors who consistently beat the vig.
 

Tico

Well-Known Member
#16

Jason:
Where did this nonsense come from?
Hello Jay, this is for you: A picture's better than 1,000 words
:laugh:




Shad:
Did Arnold ever quit his job at the Post Office?
Why quit that job? As of 2010, the pay rate is $27.31/hour! ;) Hmm... here's a good quote for a daddy who doesn't want to send his kids to colleges and/or Law/Med Schools:

"...The pay and benefits are excellent, considering no formal experience or education is required. The medical insurance is probably the best you can get since it's US Government issued..."


10splitter:
The best blackjack players don't quit by choice, they get barred from blackjack and placed in the Griffin book.

You also forgot to mention professional sports bettors who consistently beat the vig.
Hmm... 2 heads are better than one :) :toast:. You get me on the above.
 

bjcardcounter

Well-Known Member
#17
Sucker said:
Once you've posted to this site ten or more times, you'll earn the right to send private messages (PM's) to other members. I know of people who are always looking for personnel for their teams, so if you get to the point where you're allowed to PM me, I might be able to help get you set up. BTW; your skill level is NOT the most important thing that these people are looking for, believe it or not.
Ferretnparrot said:
IMO, those books suck if you want to learn the finer intricacies of counting cards in modern casinos. On a happier note, I live in central NJ off rt 9 so pm me if you want to chat. I also own a bj felt and shoe, and I know a great place to practice
I posted 11 :( Is there a delay - Can't wait pm ing you.
 

bjcardcounter

Well-Known Member
#18
tensplitter said:
Before you place a bet, practice counting through a deck of cards, then count 8 decks. You can either do it with physical decks or with software like Casino Verite. Once you can count a deck in less than 30 seconds, you're good to go to a casino.

Go to Atlantic City and sit down at a busy blackjack table with a good penetration. Count through several shoes without placing a bet, making sure to calculate the true count every round. Try to do it while talking to other players and the dealer. Then after your third shoe, count shoe #4 and place a minimum bet when the count is positive and don't bet when the count is negative. Keep doing that for a few shoes. Then double your bet when the true count is over +2. After you're comfortable with 2x min, bet 4x the min when the true count is over +3. Remember you're still playing only the positive counts to minimize your variance. Then bet 8x min when the true count is over +5, which will be rare in Atlantic City shoe games.

They can't back you off for counting in AC, and they won't notice a red chipper like you spreading 1-8 and wonging.

When you gain more experience and confidence, you could try playing all and spreading 1-15 if you have the bankroll or wonging out at -2 and spreading 1-10. Then milk the games in Pennsylvania if you're close to a store in PA.
Why do we need to count 8 decks. To ensure we are able to count between 10-20?
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#19
Jyn8923 said:
Hello world, I am a new member to these forums and am in great interest persuing card counting and team play etc etc but I can only teach myself so much. I have no idea where to find other counters or experienced peoples, I'd much like to even possibly set up a team but I will admit the obvious of being a little naive. Much thanks and so forth.
Are you a top or a bottom?
 

flyingwind

Well-Known Member
#20
Tico said:
please choose your options carefully before you invest your valuable time to get a "PhD" in anything (i.e: 1) lawyering, 2) doctoring, 3) Wall-Street-gambling, 4) casino-gambling, etc...).

Options:
1) Lawyer
A good counselor usually makes about 400,000 bucks annually. The best probably makes a hell lot more.

2) Doctor
MD with good practice makes an average of $500,000 a year. The best probably makes a hell lot more.

3) Day-trader
A decent Wall-Street gambler makes around $80,000 a year. The best ("with connections") probably makes a hell lot more.

4) BJ Gambler aka BJ-AP
Never mind how much an AP makes. The best AP quits, and that tells you a lot!
I don't know what to choose. All these options look so good!! Sigh, lawyer, doctor, day-trader, or AP. I thought a day-trader would make more. Doesn't an investment banker make more? Where does businessman fit in?
 
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