Need Advice from a Pro- Another Police Story

WABJ11

Well-Known Member
#1
This post is totally unrelated to the one I posted a few days ago, yet the details are eerily similar. I was asked to leave a certain establishment in 2010. In 2010 I was not read anything, nor did I sign anything. I was just told I was to good and that I had to leave. Obviously I left without any questions.

This time (a few days ago) as soon as the Pit Boss said he needed to talk to me I colored up and walked over to the cashier, the security guard followed me. I got my money, but what happened next was really surprising.

The security guard told me he needed to see my ID. I told him no I wasn't giving it to him and that I was leaving. He threatened to call the police and that they had me in 2010 already so that if the police were called I would get arrested for trespassing and then he would get to see my ID anyway. He said "you have a choice to make." It looked like he was ready to detain me and call the police. A few scenarios played out in my head that could involve a nice lawsuit; like wrongful detention, assault from the security guard etc... It was late and frankly I didn't feel like fighting them, I just wanted to get home so I gave them my ID.

After about 7-10 minutes of the security guard fiddling with my license, I'm brought a "barring form" that has all my information on it including my license number. It's a form they fill out to have patrons barred from the premises. The funny thing was in the comments section it said "blackjack tables only." Anyway they asked me to sign it, which I refused and they said that was fine. They returned my license and told me I could leave. But they said any return of playing blackjack would be deemed trespassing, and they would have the right to call the police to have me arrested. Their game isn't that good, frankly I was just playing it to pass the time which is why I didn't care if they kicked me out. But this is something I have never experienced in all my back offs before.

The whole scenario is not sitting well with me. I really felt like I was wrongfully treated, and I regret giving over my license. Anyway I'd like to hear from zen, FLASH, AM, Dye or any other pros: what is the right thing to do in a situation like this?
 

The Chaperone

Well-Known Member
#2
-Do not color up.

-Do not cash out.

-Do not let the goon engage you in any conversation.

-Do not hand over ID.

-Do not sign anything.

-Do not pass go.

-Do collect $200, albeit at some point down the line.

I'll give you an F+ because at least you didn't sign the form.
 
#3
Wab

This seems to be a new intimidation procedure being used around the country.

First off you live in a free country that many men died to keep that way and you just buckled under a sleight threat from some HS drop out in a uniform.:(:rolleyes:

Was this in a state reg. casino?

In a native casino it is a little more iffy but you still are protected under the US laws.

I really want to say you guys better grow a set and fast!!

Do not show ID unless it is for cashing in $10,000 or more!!

We are not fuc#ing criminals!!! Hear that guys!!! Stop acting like criminals, act like free men with rights and dignity and pride and be ready to fight to defend those rights.

I have way to many friends that have ben abused in this way recently and it has got to stop,,,so again I say,,,GROW A SET!!

Just say no!

Horse Johnson will soon have his law license and I am sure he would be happy to take on any cases steeming from this type of abuse.:cool:

CP
 

WABJ11

Well-Known Member
#4
creeping panther said:
This seems to be a new intimidation procedure being used around the country.

First off you live in a free country that many men died to keep that way and you just buckled under a sleight threat from some HS drop out in a uniform.:(:rolleyes:

Was this in a state reg. casino?

In a native casino it is a little more iffy but you still are protected under the US laws.

I really want to say you guys better grow a set and fast!!

Do not show ID unless it is for cashing in $10,000 or more!!

We are not fuc#ing criminals!!! Hear that guys!!! Stop acting like criminals, act like free men with rights and dignity and pride and be ready to fight to defend those rights.

I have way to many friends that have ben abused in this way recently and it has got to stop,,,so again I say,,,GROW A SET!!

Just say no!

Horse Johnson will soon have his law license and I am sure he would be happy to take on any cases steeming from this type of abuse.:cool:

CP
Thanks for the response. It was a state reg. casino, not tribal gaming. I know were not cheating, but what claim do they have about trespassing if I was told before that I couldn't play? Again, it was 2:30am and I really didn't wanna start a confrontation. Regretfully I probably should have. So this form that they have does it mean I cannot play BJ there again? What happens if I do?
 

Sharky

Well-Known Member
#5
WABJ11 said:
...So this form that they have does it mean I cannot play BJ there again? What happens if I do?

legally YES, arrest for trespassing

x100 NEVER give ID, unless CTR of course
 

Machinist

Well-Known Member
#6
Did you read Chaperone's response????
All this could have been avoided it looks like to me.
How many time do the "pro's" have to say...........never cashout at the first sign of heat!!!!!!
Oh well live n learn....
Kinda just sticks in the ole craw eh????
Now r u ready to treat casinos with much more contempt???
Learn to. "Hate em"

Machinist
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#7
Don't escalate, and don't take it too hard and take it home with you. I know its easier said than done, but its all just part of business.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#8
Sorry to hear your troubles WABJ11. No need for me to pile on as others have pointed out some of your mistakes. It is important to have a plan in place on what you will do when confronted by these different situations. I know sometimes that can be challenging when situations catch you off gaurd, but it doesn't sound like anything really unusual happened during these 2 similar situations, so you really should concentrate on being better prepared.

I am assuming these situation were somewhat related by their similarity in nature. If not sister properties, then same juristiction or area. I suspect you don't want to name the casinos, but if you could indicate the area (LV, reno, AC, midwest, ect) it could be a great service to the rest of us.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

KJ
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#9
Again, they have to give you a chance to leave before they call the Police to arrest you.

Since you were NOT Trespassed last year, they had no legal reason to "detain" you until the cops arrived. You were legally within your rights to refuse to show ID and upon refusal you should have been allowed to leave.
 
#10
WABJ11 said:
Thanks for the response. It was a state reg. casino, not tribal gaming. I know were not cheating, but what claim do they have about trespassing if I was told before that I couldn't play? Again, it was 2:30am and I really didn't wanna start a confrontation. Regretfully I probably should have. So this form that they have does it mean I cannot play BJ there again? What happens if I do?
Many players will tell you to not color up and not cash out, and that is a good option. But if I am traveling someplace where i don't have connections and there is no guarantee I'll be back to cash the cheques, especially if its a small amount, I will take my chances cashing out.

The bottom line is you backed down and that was a mistake. There is one basic answer you give to a security guard who asks for your ID.

"I don't have any."

Then leave. I'm a believer in a little bit of taunting and intimidation to inform the enemy that they need proceed no further with their attempt at intimidation as its just going to make them look silly. If they tell me they're going to call the cops, I say "OK, call them, you [insert degrading slur here]" But don't stop walking! Smart security people know that if a person is walking away, you don't pay any attention to what they say, you let them keep walking. Now if they try to physically stop you, you have your lawsuit, take a dive.

Last time this happened to me I was in LV and the security guards came for me, with the usual pretty young girl in tow that they were showing off for, and I chose to go to the window and cash in (mostly because I was planning on coming back that trip, and if I didn't cash in they would assume I'd be coming back to and they'd be looking for me. Once I cash in they can forget about me.) All the while they are asking me stupid questions: "Where are you staying, why don't you have any ID, where are you parked, where are you going now?" and I just told them "I'm not going to tell you." That really pissed them off, and I enjoyed that! Chaperone's advice of having no interaction whatsoever is probably best for most circumstances.
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#11
Automatic Monkey said:
The bottom line is you backed down and that was a mistake. There is one basic answer you give to a security guard who asks for your ID.

"I don't have any."
I wouldn't try this if you look anywhere near 21 however.
 

WABJ11

Well-Known Member
#12
Thanks for all the responses. Yes they knew I had ID because I'm young and was carded already at the door. I guess its hard to ascertain the entire situation in the blink of an instant, especially at 2:30am. In hindsight, I should of told the rent-a-cop to ef off and kept walking. And if they wanted to take things further I should have made a scene.

I dont understand when you guys say dont color up and dont cash out. They are approaching me to stop playing and leave. Whats the point in not listening to what you know is coming?
 

The Chaperone

Well-Known Member
#13
-Do not tell them you have no ID.

-Do not tell them to F off.

-Do not start a confrontation.

-Do not make a scene.

This all comes under "Do not let them engage you in any conversation."

Do..... LEAVE ASAP.
 

NightStalker

Well-Known Member
#14
they can..

The Chaperone said:
-Do not color up.

-Do not cash out.

-Do not let the goon engage you in any conversation.

-Do not hand over ID.

-Do not sign anything.

-Do not pass go.

-Do collect $200, albeit at some point down the line.

I'll give you an F+ because at least you didn't sign the form.
surely call cops and get you detained in some phony charges. You can file a lawsuit later, but do you really want to go through all this? At least 99% APs don't... I agree with AM's post- tell them that you don't have it..

I've been through these backoffs four times at different places and GamingComm didn't help in any of those. My reply: Give me your ID and license number first.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#15
The problem with cashing out is that surveillance has its absolutely best high-definition cameras at the cage, where they can get excellent close-up photos of you from a natural looking angle.

You are saying that the casino was NOT a tribal enterprise.
That is a good thing, because then, you have NO recourse at all.

As you were not physically manhandled or threatened with bodily harm, put in fear of your life, or detained for an extended period of time, I believe that you would have little, if any legal recourse.

In the future, if you are ever feeling that you are actually in jeopardy, do NOT move from a public area, and loudly demand that the State (or even local) police be contacted immediately. In this day and age where nearly everyone carries a cell phone, this will result in the goons 'standing down'.

Note: To be "trespassed" (in a legitimate manner) you need to be read the section of the (local) law pertaining to trespass, in front of two or more witnesses, who, when you refuse to sign the form indicating that you have been dutifully warned by a reading of the aforementioned, will indeed sign the form attesting to having witnessed the reading.

Facts on the ground are as follows: The fine for trespass (without criminal intent) for a first offender, is typically an amount between $40 and $75 in most venues. [note: It is $55 in Norwich, CT]

However, you need to be arraigned before a judge or justice, and cannot have bail set or (more likely) be released on your own recognizance, before appearing before the bar.

Heaven help you if you are arrested on a Friday night on a holiday weekend. The reality is that casinos merely up the level of their intimidation if you make a reappearance on their premises (or at a "sister" property).

Being bullied in a casino is something I never quite get used to — but if you want to engage in A.P. activities "it comes with the territory;" but at least the abuse and mistreatment by casino goons is not as violent as it was 4 decades ago.
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#16
WABJ11 said:
Thanks for all the responses. Yes they knew I had ID because I'm young and was carded already at the door. I guess its hard to ascertain the entire situation in the blink of an instant, especially at 2:30am. In hindsight, I should of told the rent-a-cop to ef off and kept walking. And if they wanted to take things further I should have made a scene.
You should treat a casino security guard the same way you would treat a "mall cop".
 
#17
Automatic Monkey said:
Once I cash in they can forget about me.) All the while they are asking me stupid questions: "Where are you staying, why don't you have any ID, where are you parked, where are you going now?" and I just told them "I'm not going to tell you." That really pissed them off, and I enjoyed that!
They are fortunate that you didn't go fully Automatic on them. zg

AutoMonk on
full-tilt automatic

 
#18
WABJ11 said:
The security guard told me he needed to see my ID. I told him no I wasn't giving it to him and that I was leaving. He threatened to call the police and that they had me in 2010 already so that if the police were called I would get arrested for trespassing and then he would get to see my ID anyway. He said "you have a choice to make."
In Nevada, at least, it would be a bluff.
I don't know about other states. I had over the top interaction a decade ago at Hilton where the security is walking alongside trying to serve his trespass notice on me to sign. Then said "are you refusing to sign? I stopped, turned around, and grabbed my crotch and said "sign this." (Remember class, do as I say and not as I do)

But artfully getting backroomed, without being obnoxious, and for no cause (ie illegal or solid criminal suspicion) could make a good jackpot settlement, as Stalker and ExCAA and others have shown. zg
 
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