Any GOOD Aussie casinos?

#1
Hi guys...

I have had a look through the threads here in the Australia section, and overall, the impression I get is that as far as decent BJ games go, Australian casino's suck terribly.

Is this actually the case? Are there any casinos in Australia that dont use CSM's, use 6:5 etc etc? That is, any that are counter friendly?

Cheers.

Edit: Hello, BTW - this is my first post here after a week of reading :)
 
#2
the answer is no

Not only do the rules suck, the players suck too.

Your average BJ player in Australia is clueless so if you play correctly you will attract attention anyway.

Surveillance knows how to count too so they will keep an eye on your bets along with the count.

You have to have quite a few tricks up your sleeve not to attract attention.

Save yourself the trouble and go to Vegas with a decent bankroll.
 
#3
Charles Wells said:
Not only do the rules suck, the players suck too.

Your average BJ player in Australia is clueless so if you play correctly you will attract attention anyway.

Surveillance knows how to count too so they will keep an eye on your bets along with the count.

You have to have quite a few tricks up your sleeve not to attract attention.

Save yourself the trouble and go to Vegas with a decent bankroll.
Hells bells - I might have to emigrate AGAIN :(

What about South Pacific or SE Asian Casinos? Anything of any worth in these regions?
 

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
#4
memorylikeasieve said:
Hells bells - I might have to emigrate AGAIN :(

What about South Pacific or SE Asian Casinos? Anything of any worth in these regions?
You cannot Card Count in Macau (its all CSM), however the games are very good house-edge wise. House edges down to 0.08% at the MGM Grand and 0.10% at the Wynn Macau.

If you want something that is counter friendly, however, the only real choice is the US. However, you can't count too aggressively, otherwise you get thrown out.
 
#5
StudiodeKadent said:
You cannot Card Count in Macau (its all CSM), however the games are very good house-edge wise. House edges down to 0.08% at the MGM Grand and 0.10% at the Wynn Macau.

If you want something that is counter friendly, however, the only real choice is the US. However, you can't count too aggressively, otherwise you get thrown out.
Thanks for the update.

Just out of interest, how much more difficult is it to play and count an 8 deck shoe, compared to a 6? I have heard of a casino here in Australia (Wrest Point in Tasmania) that does not use CSM's, but plays with 8 deck shoes.
 
#6
Tasmanian casinos

Hi there

I would forget Tasmanian casinos

They are low limit $200?? table and I went to one which only had two tables. You couldnt get a seat or even a back bet and it was a waste of time.

You are watched like a hawk.

Casinos in Nevada are still allowed to refused the action of players that are too good. This is no longer true in Atlantic city.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thing about BJ in Australia is you have eyes in the sky who have advance software. They are also counting but better than you ever will.

They enter you bets into the computer by voice and work out if you are a threat to them.

Many card counters arent a threat to the casino because of the size of their bankroll and their spread. Their risk of ruin is high.

Dummies play in Australia. Go to the US or selected casinos in Europe.
 
#7
Charles Wells,

How do you know that you wont get barred at Wrest Point? Katarina Walker states in her book - AU casinos are divided into two main sections - VIP rooms and the main floor. Main floor games are more difficult i.e. have a higher house edge whereas VIP rooms have slightly lower HE but if they find you are a counter, they will revoke your VIP membership but can still play on the main floor - is that so??
 
#8
Charles Wells said:
Hi there

I would forget Tasmanian casinos

They are low limit $200?? table and I went to one which only had two tables. You couldnt get a seat or even a back bet and it was a waste of time.

You are watched like a hawk.

Casinos in Nevada are still allowed to refused the action of players that are too good. This is no longer true in Atlantic city.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thing about BJ in Australia is you have eyes in the sky who have advance software. They are also counting but better than you ever will.

They enter you bets into the computer by voice and work out if you are a threat to them.

Many card counters arent a threat to the casino because of the size of their bankroll and their spread. Their risk of ruin is high.

Dummies play in Australia. Go to the US or selected casinos in Europe.
Well, that's taken care of that, then. I had no idea that such tools (computer analysis of bets) were in use. But if 'many card counters arent a threat' as you state above, why the heavy handed approach then? If counters ain't considered to be a threat and their bankrolls small, what's the issue?

Just out of interest, has anyone played at the two Tasmanian casinos?
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#9
Cheers Andy

memorylikeasieve said:
Well, that's taken care of that, then. I had no idea that such tools (computer analysis of bets) were in use. But if 'many card counters arent a threat' as you state above, why the heavy handed approach then? If counters ain't considered to be a threat and their bankrolls small, what's the issue?

Just out of interest, has anyone played at the two Tasmanian casinos?
They got long memories these casinos. You can put their paranoia mostly down to one guy: Andrew Scott made millions in the 90s while they were still naive and relatively unsuspecting. (He eventually got banned from 12/13 casinos.) Now, they think everyone is an Andrew Scott hotshot clone, fresh out of his cardcounting school. But that ain't you mate, is it... (Ain't me either.) Thanks Andrew. Now the rest of us have to play CSM blackjack or go to Vegas. I hope your new life in Honkers is treating you well Andy, and you don't get too many salmonellas from the food. Good luck to all. Happy voodoo on the CSM. :eek:
 
#10
Katweezel said:
They got long memories these casinos. You can put their paranoia mostly down to one guy: Andrew Scott made millions in the 90s while they were still naive and relatively unsuspecting. (He eventually got banned from 12/13 casinos.) Now, they think everyone is an Andrew Scott hotshot clone, fresh out of his cardcounting school. But that ain't you mate, is it... (Ain't me either.) Thanks Andrew. Now the rest of us have to play CSM blackjack or go to Vegas. I hope your new life in Honkers is treating you well Andy, and you don't get too many salmonellas from the food. Good luck to all. Happy voodoo on the CSM. :eek:
Thanks for this Katweezel.

Interesting - just did 5 mins of detective work on this chap and had a bit of a read. Can certainly see how paranoia on the part of the casino's can turn into a long term siege mentality.

Not good.
 
#11
if 'many card counters arent a threat' as you state above, why the heavy handed approach then? If counters ain't considered to be a threat and their bankrolls small, what's the issue?
The irony is that card counting, or more correctly the fact that casino blackjack is technically beatable, is the primary reason for the game's popularity. Whilst, personally, I have no problems with CSM's or low penetration on high limit tables and/or low-house-edge games (because casinos do have to make a profit and good games do have to be protected), it is the low limit tables that get shafted with shitty rules and CSMs.

The success of casino blackjack, in my opinion, requires an ecology of low-level advantage play (which makes the game popular), some level of variance and reasonable house edges (which allows even basic strategy players to have a winning game from time to time), as well as a long-term game protection strategy (allowing the casino to profit). Ultimately speaking, all three factors are needed to balance the interests of all three primary stakeholders: casinos, counters and basic strategy players.

UNFORTUNATELY, the gambling industry in Australia is basically an arm of the government. It raises revenue, and has a monopoly. Since they have a captive audience, they decide to rape said audience. They squeeze every penny, since competition gives no long term threat to their monopoly. Card Counters become treated essentially as tax cheats rather than viral marketing. Basic Strategy players become tax avoiders (not evaders, but avoiders) who are treated with cold, callous indifference, as opposed to clients happy to pay for entertainment.

If I were in charge of Australian gambling, I'd de-monopolize the **** out of the industry. If I were in charge of at least one casino here, I'd have house edges of 0.50% AT MOST (probably lower), $10 table limits, and I'd have CSM with 2-deck discard (providing some variance whilst still protecting the game), and on shoe games I'd have 66% penetration (for basically the same reasons... plus 66% is slightly countable, even if not 'good' for counters per se).

This would at least be tolerable, and they would be better conditions for players. And a game that is good for players is good for the casino: you get repeat business.

But casinos in Australia are not businesses. They are basically the same as the department of mother****ing transport (with terrible, grumpy, grouchy service too!).
 
#12
counters

The guy you talk about that played in the 90's did not win millions.

More like tens of thousands from the individual casinos. All up it could have gone 6 figures from Australian casinos- definitely not millions.

I would say he makes more money teaching blackjack and selling the flashcards then he did counting.

I've seen his website - its all the same stuff they teach in US counting schools but more expensive. Everybody has to make a dollar and good on him for having a go.

BJ schools arent everything - I think you can acheive the same results by reading Standford Wong's book and buying a BJ layout to practice at home.

Practice and avoiding bad casinos with bad rules is important.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#13
Charles Wells said:
The guy you talk about that played in the 90's did not win millions.

More like tens of thousands from the individual casinos. All up it could have gone 6 figures from Australian casinos- definitely not millions.

I would say he makes more money teaching blackjack and selling the flashcards then he did counting.

I've seen his website - its all the same stuff they teach in US counting schools but more expensive. Everybody has to make a dollar and good on him for having a go.

BJ schools arent everything - I think you can acheive the same results by reading Standford Wong's book and buying a BJ layout to practice at home.

Practice and avoiding bad casinos with bad rules is important.
I paid Andrew $990 hard-scrabble cash at the time and completed his card counting school course. (It turned out to be the best investment I ever made because I immediately stopped losing, as a BS ploppy.)

At the time, Andrew told me that he had made 'millions' from card counting and he had lost for only one year from the previous 12 years, and had averaged yearly income figure of high in the 6-figures bracket for 11 of 12 years. That included several overseas trips per year. He was a trained accountant and in my experience, he conducted himself with integrity. His mission was to 'punish' casinos because they (Adelaide casino) refused to agree to let him 'win' $100,000 year from them with his card counting, or otherwise he would train thousands in the art, which would cost them far more than a measly one hundred grand a year. He went ahead and trained many, many counters, just to prove his point (and make a lot of extra cash...) (Not sure if it was thousands of card counters, but could have been.)

These days, last I heard, he has better things to do - in the mentoring field - while he has HQ in Hong Kong. I guess only Andrew Scott is placed to know what really happened. Years on, I guess it doesn't matter much whatever happened or did not happen. We are all just trying our best to live happily ever after. I hope. :)
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#14
Obviously you severely overpaid for a beginner's course in basic Card Counting.

I teach basic and intermediate Card Counting gratis.

You would do well to nurture a healthy cynicism when it comes to people
telling you how they won fortunes playing BJ, especially on your continent,
a vast wasteland for Bj players.
 
#15
Flash and Katweezeel,

Andrew's website is available at (Dead link: http://www.blackjack-masters.com). Im not sure whether he still runs it or not but his course fees have more than tripled the cost that you paid for it. For people in Melbourne, it now costs $ 6,600 and for people around Australia, it will cost $9,900 and people around the world it will cost $ 16,500. Apparently, there are some tests that you have to pay for as well.

Andrew's course would have had relevance if it was taught like 8 years ago when Australia's BJ games were not as bad as they are now. They were no CSM (CSM were introduced in 2000 by ShuffleMaster) - that didnt mean that they were preferential shuffling. I have been looking at various websites and Australia's BJ used to be 6 decks, S 17 dealt from a hand-shuffled deck or ASM. You could double on any first two cards (not like now where you can only double on 9,10 and 11).

Nowadays, most Australian casinos have CSM on the main floor, restrict doubling to 9,10 and 11 only. Low stake BJ pays 6 to 5. Melbourne's casino have H17 but takes BB+1. Most other Australian casinos take ENHC except Queensland casinos. The only place where you will get a good game is in the VIP room where they monitor your play and even if you are only playing with a 0.4% advantage, they can revoke your membership.

Back 8 years ago, BJ wasnt so bad in Australia but now they are. Im not sure whether Andrew made his fortune on playing BJ or teaching his students. Sure, playing with an advantage of 0.4% to 1.2%, he could have made a lot a year but someone betting on Asian Handicap soccer with a win rate of 66% might win more than him.

To be continued
 
#16
Card counters are not really a threat to the casino's bottom line - because for every card counter that succeeds, at least 100 will fail. Card counters only play with a very small edge over the casino. (So when the TC is 5, the card counter is playing with a 2.0% advantage, which is equivalent to winning 51% and losing 49%).

Playing BJ requires not only skill and abilities, it requires patience and strong discipline. It also requires an iron determination to succeed and most of all, it requires keeping up to date with changes in the casino rules. There will be long losing streaks sessions which people have to deal with psychologically and avoid over-betting and chasing losses. It can be psychologically damaging, if you are found to be a card counter at a local casino even if you have lost thousands. Casinos can and will kick you out once they have determined you are a counter. Most casinos dont because new card counters have limited bankrolls, make incorrect playing decisions by over-estimating or under-estimating the number of decks remaining or by not using a sufficient spread to overcome the HE. Playing in a casino environment can be hard because you have a split second to decide whether you want to play the next hand or not and how much to bet. You cannot take over 1 minute to decide how much to bet because this will alert the pits.

It can also also my psychologically damaging, if a person is losing a lot of money and they are doing every thing correctly. They must now resize their bet unit and play on smaller stake tables which is similiar to being demoted!

Yes most counters can beat single and double deck games but they are often watched like a hawk. Your play is scrunitized to the extreme even if you were using a 1-4 spread.

Incidentally, over a fortnight ago, I emailed Andrew Scott and detailed him the playing conditions of Australian BJ and told him the US conditions were more vastly superior compared to Australian casinos. He still hasnt replied to me. Andrew's email can be found on his website (Dead link: http://www.blackjack-masters.com)
 
#18
Andrew

I too know people who have paid thousands for these courses.

They figured that after blowing a couple of hundred grand on hunches and poor basic strategy (over a decade) 6 grand on a counting course could only improve things.

Its an expensive way to learn.

I was lucky to have a gf who was a dealer and she would deal to me at home whenever I wanted. I must of spent 10 hours practicing for every hour at the casino.

Someone can show you all the tricks but if you dont practice for hundreds of hours and have the discipline to stick to a plan you will never have a chance.

I estimated Andrews winnings in the six figures because many gamblers (and fishermen) embelish the truth. Im not saying this guy is a liar.

Over time a 20 grand win is remembered as a 120 grand win.

I know some people who won more than a million dollars playing bj but they are inducted in the bj hall of fame.

http://www.blackjackhero.com/blackjack/hall-fame/ (Archive copy)
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#19
Charles Wells said:
I too know people who have paid thousands for these courses.

They figured that after blowing a couple of hundred grand on hunches and poor basic strategy (over a decade) 6 grand on a counting course could only improve things.

Its an expensive way to learn.

I was lucky to have a gf who was a dealer and she would deal to me at home whenever I wanted. I must of spent 10 hours practicing for every hour at the casino.

Someone can show you all the tricks but if you dont practice for hundreds of hours and have the discipline to stick to a plan you will never have a chance.

I estimated Andrews winnings in the six figures because many gamblers (and fishermen) embelish the truth. Im not saying this guy is a liar.

Over time a 20 grand win is remembered as a 120 grand win.

I know some people who won more than a million dollars playing bj but they are inducted in the bj hall of fame.

http://www.blackjackhero.com/blackjack/hall-fame/ (Archive copy)
Well, Charles, I never spotted the name Andrew Scott and his millions anywhere down in the hall of fame, and there are a lot of names down the bottom there. Never mind, there looks to be plenty of room for additions, such as Charles Wells and Katweezel. :eyepatch: :cool2::joker:
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#20
I will desist from using terms like "naive" and "gullible"

Re: your reference to "blackjack heroes"

In a very recent chat on this site Al Francesco, (who is on that list), the originator of the BJ Team concept, stated unequivocally,
that he had recruited Ken Uston to play on his original BJ teams and that he was a net LOSER, contributing nothing to the team's profits.
 
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