Want to start counting

rennyboy

Active Member
#1
I am a basic strategy player who is finally realizing that no matter how many times I win playing BS the losses always outweigh the wins. I just bought and have read half of Stanford Wongs book. I am leaning right now towards using the KO system. It seems user friendly. I play in AC, mostly 8 deck I believe, no surrender, double any 2 and resplit 3X, Aces split get only 1 card. I plan on practicing at home with 8 decks and my friend dealing to me. If I get really good and quick at counting, can I really "expect" to win most of my sessions? It seems really too good to be true. I am young and retired and have more than enough time to practice. Also, while I don't have unlimited funds, I can expect to bring several thousand a session. Please any info, suggestions and opinions will be greatly appreciated, good or bad. Thanks in advance
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#2
Welcome to the world of advantage play. Once you start counting you will wonder how anyone can play this game without counting. While its not too good to be true card counting is still a grind, especially against the 8 deck monsters. You can expect to win up to 2 of every 3 sessions over the long run. The swings in your account will also be more volatile as you will be using a large bet spread to beat 8 deck games. KO is a good place to start as it is easy to learn and can be improved upon once you gain more experience by true counting it or converting to another count. I would also suggest you mainly backcount shoes as it is more profitable and can be done with a smaller bankroll.
 
#3
To rennyboy

I agree with everything Systems Trader has said. However, if you have Wong's book why not use Hi Low? There is a lot of public information and studies done using Hi Low. Having said that you will be fine with KO. Be very prepared to take wild swings. In the long run you can win 2 out of 3 sessions but in any short run you will win just a little over 50% of the time.

Good Luck
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#4
I think KO is a perfectly good system to use.

If you're interested, go buy "Knockout Blackjack" by fuchs and that other dude.
it's about $13 on amazon and is a very good read for any beginner even if you decide not to use it.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#6
rennyboy said:
What does backcounting mean?
Backcounting (often called Wonging) is when you stand behind the table and count the cards without playing. Once the cards turn in your favor you sit down and start betting. That way you play every hand with an advantage over the house.

-Sonny-
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#7
Sonny said:
Backcounting (often called Wonging) is when you stand behind the table and count the cards without playing. Once the cards turn in your favor you sit down and start betting. That way you play every hand with an advantage over the house.

-Sonny-
as long as your not overbetting your bankroll then wonging allows playing with an advantage. whether the fruits of that advantage are realized or not remains to be seen over the long haul.
 
#8
rennyboy said:
I am a basic strategy player who is finally realizing that no matter how many times I win playing BS the losses always outweigh the wins. I just bought and have read half of Stanford Wongs book. I am leaning right now towards using the KO system. It seems user friendly. I play in AC, mostly 8 deck I believe, no surrender, double any 2 and resplit 3X, Aces split get only 1 card. I plan on practicing at home with 8 decks and my friend dealing to me. If I get really good and quick at counting, can I really "expect" to win most of my sessions? It seems really too good to be true. I am young and retired and have more than enough time to practice. Also, while I don't have unlimited funds, I can expect to bring several thousand a session. Please any info, suggestions and opinions will be greatly appreciated, good or bad. Thanks in advance
Looks like a made up story. Young and retired but does not have unlimited funds. You would be better off going back to work and earning a paycheck the old fashion way. Have you ever thought about becoming a fiction writer?
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#9
InPlay said:
Looks like a made up story. Young and retired but does not have unlimited funds. You would be better off going back to work and earning a paycheck the old fashion way. Have you ever thought about becoming a fiction writer?
not necessarily InPlay. i retired early myself but i'm not young either lol. as far as unlimited funds thats really just a question of how much is enough. depends on the indivdual to a great degree. but i'd agree that going back to work would likely yield a better income if thats what he's after. lol, i went back to work myself, more so because i just wanted to than had to. but i also repaired a small hole in my meager bankroll by doing so and it's helping me through some finacial dealings that will pay in the long run but cost in the short term.
 
#10
I retired at 34, because of an injury, no lawsuit involved. I am 39 now.Just living off my pensions and old real estate investment. So, while I do not have unlimited funds, I do have a "few" extra bucks. I cannot go back to work so that is not an option, and since I play at the casinos on average 3 times a month, why not try to play with an advantage?
 
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#11
rennyboy said:
I retired at 34, because of an injury, no lawsuit involved. I am 39 now.Just living off my pensions and old real estate investment. So, while I do not have unlimited funds, I do have a "few" extra bucks. I cannot go back to work so that is not an option, and since I play at the casinos on average 3 times a month, why not try to play with an advantage?
being in the casinos almost everyday,I see some of the same people quite often. From what i can tell, most arent counting...Makes me wonder how they can play Blackjack[some of them daily]and keep coming back for more.I have engaged in conversation with a few[just to find out where there coming from]So far all ive spoken to believe bs is the only way to play.I try to be as subtle as possible by asking questions.I.E.'ever hear of bryce carlson,arnold snyder,etc.''Have not recieved a yes as of yet.SOmetimes I want to just blurt out loud''you have no business playing this game.ITS CALLED BASIC STRATEGY FOR A REASON.Its basic!! The casino hands out those BS cards so you dont go looking any further into the game.IF your going to play BJ on a consistent basis learn it,master it.DON'T DEPEND ON LUCK!!On the other hand I do realize its those who play for entertainment purposes only[and those whom believe BS is the only way to play]are what allows me to keep doing what i'm doing
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#13
rennyboy said:
If I get really good and quick at counting, can I really "expect" to win most of my sessions? It seems really too good to be true.
It's a waste of time to beat the 8 deck game if you play all the hands. Especially at a full table.

Once you learn to count, learn about win rate and ROR.

Just my opinion.
 
#14
I have been reading and trying to track my play online and have noticed the huge difference in 8 and 6 decks. I realize I will have to go in search of the 6 deck games. Where in AC are the 6 deck games? I have heard the Trump Plaza, any others? Thanks
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#15
Kasi said:
It's a waste of time to beat the 8 deck game if you play all the hands. Especially at a full table.

...........
well that is the conventional wisdom and doubtless it's true. it's also typically the kind of game and condition some of us are most likely to find our self's in.
those and the six deck game (with one spot convieniently open next to me :) ) are the situations i practice against. it is what it is i guess lol.
i at least try and wong out or sit out some durring practice sessions. and i can throw in some wonging in to a minimun degree. that's just what fits the realities i face.
i guess you gotta be fairly agressive with the ramp and spread to have a fighting chance over time. and then for me it's like how much am i actually going to play and the answer is well a fair amount but nothing on the level of time that a pro is going to put in. so i suppose this is part of where i get the inclination to stop playing if i should get so lucky as to reach expectation after a stretch or even exceed it. savour the win for a while regardless that the enjoyment may be rooted in fantasy land or not.... then come back another day and try again hoping for the best lol.
so yeah it's like the eight decker's are crap and even more so crowded but like the basic strategy only player for whom those conditions may at least slow down the carnage, i guess a player like me might find an ever so slight edge in all that. like you say nothing life changing lol.
so the above isn't what i'd recommend to anyone, just is the direction i'm wondering in for now.
 
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RJT

Well-Known Member
#16
zengrifter said:
No good, use SOFTWARE for home drilling. zg
Afraid not. Software's nice for keeping some skills polished, especially when you are away or do not have the facilities to do physical drills. It's not the best form of practice however. Take CV for example - absolutely brillient program, so versitile - but it doesn't prepare you for certain things. Playing a full table on CV, your eyes barely need to move to count every card. Play a full table and you'll find counting it is different. Reading the discard tray is another point. While CV's discard tray is very realistic, it doesn't provide the perspective that you'll have when playing on an actual table. These sort of factors may seem small, but they add up to a lot. That's why it's alway better to do the majority of your practice on a table and leave the software to facilitate inconvenient moments.

RJT.
 
#17
rennyboy said:
I have been reading and trying to track my play online and have noticed the huge difference in 8 and 6 decks. I realize I will have to go in search of the 6 deck games. Where in AC are the 6 deck games? I have heard the Trump Plaza, any others? Thanks
There are no huge differences between 8D and 6D games, other than psychological. Just look for the games with deepest penetration. In AC you could find them anywhere.
 

rogue1

Well-Known Member
#18
The Borgata

I understand that The Borgata in A.C. offers a 6 deck game. Stay away from dealer Vau at The Tropicana-he's an idiot!
 
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