Casinos dont know if your cheating??

lucifer

Well-Known Member
#1
If the eye knows you are seeing the hole card in bj, and your winning a fortune,how does the casino know your not cheating. I know its not illegal to take advantage of a weak dealer, but what is the usual response from the casino, when security shows up. They dont know if your in with the dealer or not. If you refuse to go to the back room and answer questions, because you know your not cheating, do they have to let you go, or can they make you come with them under some probable cause type law. what is the legal right of the casino compared to your legal rights. both sides can be considered right.
 
#2
lucifer said:
If the eye knows you are seeing the hole card in bj, and your winning a fortune,how does the casino know your not cheating. I know its not illegal to take advantage of a weak dealer, but what is the usual response from the casino, when security shows up. They dont know if your in with the dealer or not. If you refuse to go to the back room and answer questions, because you know your not cheating, do they have to let you go, or can they make you come with them under some probable cause type law. what is the legal right of the casino compared to your legal rights. both sides can be considered right.
For them to have probable cause to believe you are cheating they have to see you do something that indicates you are probably cheating. That's what it would take for them to legally detain you. It has to be something articulable, like "I saw the subject bend a card, then make a play which gave him an advantage when the same bent card was subsequently held by the dealer.

Once they detain you they have committed themselves just like a police officer does when he arrests you and they can't just say "OK I guess we can't prove it. Sorry" without any consequences. In any state but Nevada the advantage would then turn to you and you would have grounds for a civil and/or criminal case against the casino. But gaming is Nevada's only industry and you can expect all disputes to be settled in a casino's favor.

What's trickier is a situation where someone else marks or bends cards, walks away, and you sit down, notice damaged cards and play them to your advantage. Technically you could be cheating because the person who damaged the cards could be your accomplice. But the casino is obliged to replace damaged cards and it's not your fault if they allow marked cards to remain in play. A perfect way to play a marked-card game is to have the card marker and the mark player be there at different times and have nothing to do with one another.
 

lucifer

Well-Known Member
#3
im talking about hole carding. its legal, if your not connected with the dealer.how would they know upfront if your working with the dealer. marking cards isnt legal, but its hard to prove.
 
#4
lucifer said:
im talking about hole carding. its legal, if your not connected with the dealer.how would they know upfront if your working with the dealer. marking cards isnt legal, but its hard to prove.
Good question, they don't know but the burden of proof is on them. They have every right to fire the dealer if he exposes his cards and that will be an immediate solution to the problem with that one dealer. Then they'll probably never know if you were working together.

It actually is not illegal to mark cards, as long as the mark is not used to play the game with an advantage. This is why having unconnected people do the marking and the playing is a powerful technique and although I would never mark cards, if I were playing and saw marked cards in play I would not hesitate to take advantage. When cards are handled by the public they get marked and damaged all the time and I've seen everything from chicken grease to nose-pick on cards at a table just from the usual slobbishness of people. There's nothing that can be done about it other than requiring all players to wear white gloves at the table.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#5
Top Ten list

The #1 sign that you play in AC too much:

Automatic Monkey said:
...I've seen everything from chicken grease to nose-pick on cards at a table just from the usual slobbishness of people.
-Sonny-
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#7
Sonny said:
The #1 sign that you play in AC too much
Is AC any worse than the low-end places in Las Vegas? I used to play poker in the Excalibur poker room, where they'd serve dinner for the players, and the card shufflers would jam all the time around dinner from all the crap people would smear on the cards.

I heard Excalibur recently got rid of cards entirely and put in a computerized poker system; I'm willing to bet part of it is the disgusting slobs that play there just so they can get a free deep fried everything meal. At least you can wipe down a computer screen.
 

Pelerus

Well-Known Member
#8
callipygian said:
I heard Excalibur recently got rid of cards entirely and put in a computerized poker system; I'm willing to bet part of it is the disgusting slobs that play there just so they can get a free deep fried everything meal. At least you can wipe down a computer screen.
Wow, a poker room at a major casino did away with physical cards? That surprises me.
 

lucifer

Well-Known Member
#9
the poker machines are actually great.THose that say it wont catch on are fooling themselves.excalibur had a exclusive and that has now ended.3.00 rake.no tipping.twice as many hands an hour.no mistakes.poker dealers will be extinct in 5 years.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#10
hole carding vs counting backoffs

lucifer said:
If the eye knows you are seeing the hole card in bj, and your winning a fortune,how does the casino know your not cheating. I know its not illegal to take advantage of a weak dealer, but what is the usual response from the casino, when security shows up. They dont know if your in with the dealer or not. If you refuse to go to the back room and answer questions, because you know your not cheating, do they have to let you go, or can they make you come with them under some probable cause type law. what is the legal right of the casino compared to your legal rights. both sides can be considered right.

Luckily, every cardcounting backoff I have experienced in the past bunch of years has been professional and polite (back in 80's a few were rough).
I was caught holecarding and though not backroomed, it was nasty, and I was tossed, not backedoff.
This is understandable to me and from a casino point of view.
The cardcounter is a problem but they are sure he is doing nothing illegal, so just back him off and let him become the problem of some other casino. In most cases they record it for their corporate casinos to see but do not flyer you basically saying to you to take your counting to our competition.

The holecarder is a problem where they must do a ton of investigation if they want to determine if he is cheating or they have a weak dealer. Either way, it is embarrising to them to let someone cheat or have poorly trained dealers.
Is the playing using something like a shinner to get a view?
Is the dealer weak or is he working with that player and can we get enough video to possibly prove cheating?

The fact that a holecarder will continue to return to that same casino and search for that same dealer would not be proof in my opinion. As a holecarder, I keep a list of weak dealers with stuff like the casino, his shift, name and description in order to possibly find him upon my return. Certain proof of cheating would probably require filming some other form of contact between them, seeing a combination of other acts besides the hole card view or something else.

Because that burden is so great (arrests that do not hold up can still be made though), the expediant thing is for the casino to 86 the player and investigate and or retrain the dealer.

So, my answer to your question is that they could back room you, though it will be an illegal act on their part. They could trump up false charges such as card marking (Grosjean/Russo) or if they went colllusion then expect the dealer to be backroomed with you. Smarter, better decision is just toss you on the street.

ihate17
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#11
Backrooming Non-Cheaters

If you have nothing to fear legally go with them to the backroom. Casino's are no longer like they were in the Mob days. You are not going to get beaten up or robbed. If they are going to charge you with cheating the burden of proof is in their court. "He was holecarding this dealer, they must be in cahoots, charge them both". There has to be more to the charge, like was pointed out in above posts. Large scale cheating operations are usually uncovered in long term investigations and involve several levels of conspirators who funnel millions from a casino's coffers.

If they backroom you for any purpose it will be to arrest you. There will be police in the backroom. Even though the casino wants to discourage cheating having someone cuffed at the table and dragged out into a paddy wagon is bad for business.

If you are not cheating and they press trumped up charges or detain you without cause you will probably make more out of suing them civily than you ever would advantage gaming. This happend to Grosjean probably only because he was playing with a convicted cheat.

Once I was told by a PB, "What you are doing is illegal so stop doing it." I knew there was no law agaisnt what I was doing so I antagonised her. "If I am doing something against the gaming act or something criminal it is your duty to have me arrested, charged, give me my miranda rights so I be brought to justice." She backed down with her threats of legal recourse but I was backed off. Chicken **** cowards.

If they have no evidence of cheating the easy way for them is to tresspass or back you off regardless of what you are doing. This is the only thing I have ever seen or happen to me or any AP's I associate with. I have also seen games I count get worse and other defenses come to defend against other advance plays.

If you are cheating and they want to backroom you...run. But know that the police fraud squad will have pictures etc. and if you are resisting arrest you can be expected to be tackled at the door without legal recourse.
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#12
Using Marked Cards

In one casino I frequent the will sell food at the tables. This includes, chocolate cake, doughnuts, hotdogs and hamburgers with condiments many things that can be used to mark cards purposefully or not. For this to happen the greasy-fingered player will eventually touch all the cards but sometimes only a couple will be greased-up.
 
#13
Martin Gayle said:
If you have nothing to fear legally go with them to the backroom. Casino's are no longer like they were in the Mob days. You are not going to get beaten up or robbed. If they are going to charge you with cheating the burden of proof is in their court. "He was holecarding this dealer, they must be in cahoots, charge them both". There has to be more to the charge, like was pointed out in above posts. Large scale cheating operations are usually uncovered in long term investigations and involve several levels of conspirators who funnel millions from a casino's coffers.

If they backroom you for any purpose it will be to arrest you. There will be police in the backroom. Even though the casino wants to discourage cheating having someone cuffed at the table and dragged out into a paddy wagon is bad for business.

If you are not cheating and they press trumped up charges or detain you without cause you will probably make more out of suing them civily than you ever would advantage gaming. This happend to Grosjean probably only because he was playing with a convicted cheat.

Once I was told by a PB, "What you are doing is illegal so stop doing it." I knew there was no law agaisnt what I was doing so I antagonised her. "If I am doing something against the gaming act or something criminal it is your duty to have me arrested, charged, give me my miranda rights so I be brought to justice." She backed down with her threats of legal recourse but I was backed off. Chicken **** cowards.

If they have no evidence of cheating the easy way for them is to tresspass or back you off regardless of what you are doing. This is the only thing I have ever seen or happen to me or any AP's I associate with. I have also seen games I count get worse and other defenses come to defend against other advance plays.

If you are cheating and they want to backroom you...run. But know that the police fraud squad will have pictures etc. and if you are resisting arrest you can be expected to be tackled at the door without legal recourse.
No this is bad advice. Do not ever go to the back room. If the police are going to arrest you they can and should do it right at the table and the police are supposed to take you to the police station, not a back room in a casino.

If they are trying to take you to a back room it's because they want to do something that they don't want anyone to see. This can't be good. Never mind getting beaten up, they can plant something on you or frame you up if they realize they've screwed up and now have to come up with something to save their jobs. You are right that you have a civil case against them if you are innocent which just gives them additional motive to frame you or falsely accuse you if you are innocent. They're not going to just sit back and swallow a lawsuit, they're going to try to pin a bogus charge on you.

If they tell you to come to a back room tell them no, you're leaving the casino, and leave. If they try to physically restrain you from leaving hit the floor or sit down at a slot machine and await the police. If they try to drag you to a back room you likely are dealing with rogue security and you probably should fight because something extraordinary is going on.
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#14
Precedent?

Is there any case law or legal precedent of casino's trying this (framing, planting) in the video age? Anyone on this fourm want to share any experiences?

Any court case involving cheating in the last 20 yrs, give or take, to my knowledge has involved either collusion, which is proven by extended investigation or video evidence of someone cheating on the casino floor.

There is a degree of paranoia all AP's live with and taking my advice in the above probably goes against all intuition. However, if casino's are framing AP's or anyone for that matter in the backroom there has to be some example of someone getting off after being framed and then casino management head's roll.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#15
It’s always better to be brought to a back room against your will. Even if you don’t try to physically prevent it you should always verbally be adamant that they are forcing you to go unwillingly. If you go to the back room willingly then not only are you giving up your rights you are giving up potential charges against them. Either they will hesitate to backroom you or you will have legal recourse when they do. It's a lock bet.

-Sonny-
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#18
convient loss of the video

Martin Gayle said:
Is there any case law or legal precedent of casino's trying this (framing, planting) in the video age? Anyone on this fourm want to share any experiences?

Any court case involving cheating in the last 20 yrs, give or take, to my knowledge has involved either collusion, which is proven by extended investigation or video evidence of someone cheating on the casino floor.

There is a degree of paranoia all AP's live with and taking my advice in the above probably goes against all intuition. However, if casino's are framing AP's or anyone for that matter in the backroom there has to be some example of someone getting off after being framed and then casino management head's roll.

I do not think there are any cases where a false video has been created by a casino. There are several documented cases where the casino has told gaming that they had video evidence that a player was cheating, gaming acted upon these statements (never seeing the evidence) and then the casino could not produce the evidence to the DA's office when requested.
I think the charge of card marking against Grosjean falls into this category. The interesting thing here is that the arrest was made soley upon the casino's statement that they had the evidence and not upon the "real" police officers seeing any evidence, yet the court would not let Grosjean sue Gaming.

ihate17
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#19
Martin Gayle said:
If they backroom you for any purpose it will be to arrest you. There will be police in the backroom.
Have you ever been backroomed? Both of these would go against my intuition, but I have no experience. Here's what I do know:

(1) Police aren't going to mill about at casinos and wait for casinos to parade accused cheaters before them. Most stories I've read involve being backroomed FIRST, and THEN police being called.

(2) Backrooming doesn't need to correlate with an arrest. The legal definition is that casinos (at least in Nevada) can backroom you on suspicion of cheating. The police will need reasonable suspicion to arrest you. There's two ways in which a casino might want to backroom you even if they know you'll never be arrested (because they know their suspicion is not reasonable).

- The casino wants to scare you. Just let you stew for an hour (or whatever they can get away with) and then give you some harsh words and release you. They incur no liability, as any flimsy excuse should suffice to prove the requisite suspicion in court. During this time, if they can coerce you into a confession or admitting to something more serious, then they've got you nailed.

- The casino just wants to take you out of play for a while. Realize that you being detained in a backroom for 3 hours and then being booked at the police station and having to make bail, even if all charges are dropped, is a WIN for the casino. Your session has been ruined and perhaps your trip as well. Again, so long as they have reasonable suspicion, there's no liability.

These legal situations very closely parallel police power when it comes to detaining people at traffic stops. The majority of the value comes from tricking the victim into surrendering rights; if that fails, then trump up a reason for detention (which carries a very low standard) and try to sweat it out; if the victim perseveres, there's little more the police can do and little legal recourse for the victim (because of the low standard for detention). They settle for having wasted your time.
 
#20
Detainment

Hey all,

I'm new to both this board and the world of card counting. I have been browsing around here the past couple weeks after my first trip to Las Vegas and have found it very informative.

I thought I'd add my two cents to this thread. I'm a third year law student with no interest in studying for my last set of exams, so I have plenty of incentive to look up the statute (standard legal disclaimer: consult a lawyer before taking anything I say as valid. I'm not giving any specific legal advice)...


N.R.S. 465.101 allows the casino and its employees to question any person in its establishment suspected of violating any of the provisions of the gaming chapter (someone they think is cheating). They do need probable cause, and can only hold you in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time.

As long as security has probable cause and acts reasonably, the casino will not be subject to civil or criminal liability on account of any questioning or reporting of an individual to state gaming control or law enforcement, unless, it is established by clear and convincing evidence that the taking into custody and detention are unreasonable under all the circumstances.

There also must be a sign placed in a conspicuous location stating:

Any gaming licensee, or any of his officers, employees or agents who has probable cause for believing that any person has violated any provision of chapter 465 of NRS prohibiting cheating in gaming may detain that person in the establishment.

for the casino to be shielded from liability.

I have no idea how this is actually applied, just laying out what the statute says.
 
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