Looking for direction on Counting Systems

#1
About two months ago I picked up the book "Play BlackJack like the Pros" by John Bukofsky. The book has left me with some questions though that I'm hoping some of the seasoned players on here could help me out with...

The book indicates that Uston APC is the most advanced card counting system. I've put quite a bit of time into learning it the past few months, but before I go any further I'd like to ensure I'm learning the preferred method of today's pros.
Is Uston APC actually the preferred advanced counting method of professional players today? I have read that the Uston APC system may be obsolete in favor of a "Zen" system but I am not familiar with that. Is this true? And if so, what are some good reading materials for the Zen system?

Thanks in advance for any help!
 
#3
Thanks for the response QFIT. Is the lack of individuals using the Uston APC method mostly due to it's complexity, thus making it difficult to implement in a casino environment while maintaining the act of an average player?

I was doing a little more research and came accross the Wong Halves and Zen systems.

Based on the charts I've been looking at here: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm , which coincidentally may be your site :) it seems that while Wong Halves may have the slighter edge, it doesn't seem to be enough to justify not using what appears to be the easier to learn Zen system.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Thanks again, looking for any tips I can get!
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#4
Uston APC is difficult, better for single-deck, and was designed more to be sold, not used. Halves is also difficult. Zen is good; I just don't like true-counting by quarter decks.
 
#5
So the Uston APC method was mostly there to sell books and get people interested in counting as opposed to actually seeing use? Makes sense because it worked on me. Dedicated most of the previous few months to learning it so I'm glad I came here to get some insight on it before going any further!

As far as Wong halves and Zen go, I would be willing to put in the extra effort into learning the halves counting system, but it's benefits don't seem to outweigh the Zen system enough to justify using it. Have you had experience in a casino environment using Zen or Wong halves?
 

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#6
ALLucK said:
So the Uston APC method was mostly there to sell books and get people interested in counting as opposed to actually seeing use? Makes sense because it worked on me. Dedicated most of the previous few months to learning it so I'm glad I came here to get some insight on it before going any further!

As far as Wong halves and Zen go, I would be willing to put in the extra effort into learning the halves counting system, but it's benefits don't seem to outweigh the Zen system enough to justify using it. Have you had experience in a casino environment using Zen or Wong halves?
You dont actually need any experience in the casino to figure out that Level 3systems could be a royal pain. While choosing a level II system over a level I system is subject to debate within the card counting community. Chosing a level III system over a level II system is universally accepted of not being a wise move.

My personal oppinion about the matter. if you want a level I count use Hi-Lo
For level II count use ZEN, but if you play mostly pitch games Hi-Opt II will work like a charm
 
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#7
I'll start putting some time into Zen since I am not banking on finding many pitch games out there that are $5 and $10 minimum games. So I'll mostly be limited to the off-hours 6-deck shoe games when starting out. Zen sounds to be the best for this. Thanks for the input, and I'll be in that newbie chat session on Wednesday for sure.
 
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