New counters, advice on adjusting BS

ycming

Well-Known Member
#1
Hey peeps,

Me and my friend have gather £2000 together and the game we are playing ranges from £2 to £400 with rules like the following:

Dealer stand on soft 17
Double on any 2 cards
Unlimit respilts (even aces) and allow double after spilt
Can spilt on any pairs
1 card only on spilt ace
No hole card for dealer (this is in UK)

We will be using the hi-lo count and question is that it is obvious that you adjust the BS depending on the count, but how far do you guys go ? I have found the following charts which is rather intense and alot to learn, just want to see what are your view on it?

As for our experiences, we have been hitting the casino casually without a large bankroll and making a few bucks here and there for the past 2-3 years but nothing seriously. We just want to take this a step further now and if anyone from the Glasgow area would like to share some experiences, please pm me.

http://www.blackjackscience.com/Chart_Numbers_Chart.html (Archive copy)

Thanks
Ming
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#2
The most common BS adjustments are listed in the Frequently Asked Questions thread at the top of this forum. Learning the most important 20-25 adjustments will give you a very good start and you can learn the rest a little bit at a time.

-Sonny-
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#3
Thanks for the link to the FAQ, but i can't seem to find information on BS adjustments?

Care to post a direct link to it?

Thanks
Ming
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#5
many thanks,

Does it exist just as optimal seating position?

And would you recommend the bet spread as in other thread:

0 - £0
1 - £10
2 - £10
>2 - £20

With this be too agressive?

Thanks
Ming
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#6
No, not aggressive enough. I play in the UK and apply the following betting ramp, using the Hi-Lo count:

TC units
<1 = 1
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 4
4+ = 8

When playing all, usual on a busy evening when there's no chance of getting back on the table if you leave in a negative count, over the longer term this makes the game slightly better than breakeven; +0.45%. With perfect play, applying the I18, spreading 1-16 and wonging out at TC-1, my calc throws out a longer term EV of +1.24%. You will need to knock a bit off of these figures for cover plays. So if you divide your bankroll by 400 to give a reasonable risk of ruin that makes your betting unit £5.00, and playing 70 hands an hour your longer term EV about a tenner (2 units) an hour.

Put's it all into perspective doesn't it. I think you'd make more money using your two grand to buy and sell stuff on eBay.

Good luck.
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#7
newb99 said:
No, not aggressive enough. I play in the UK and apply the following betting ramp, using the Hi-Lo count:

TC units
<1 = 1
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 4
4+ = 8

When playing all, usual on a busy evening when there's no chance of getting back on the table if you leave in a negative count, over the longer term this makes the game slightly better than breakeven; +0.45%. With perfect play, applying the I18, spreading 1-16 and wonging out at TC-1, my calc throws out a longer term EV of +1.24%. You will need to knock a bit off of these figures for cover plays. So if you divide your bankroll by 400 to give a reasonable risk of ruin that makes your betting unit £5.00, and playing 70 hands an hour your longer term EV about a tenner (2 units) an hour.

Put's it all into perspective doesn't it. I think you'd make more money using your two grand to buy and sell stuff on eBay.

Good luck.
Thanks mate, now i got to agree after last night making hardly any money at all. Remeber there is 2 of us playing with the same bank roll, so hopefully out we'll make more £/ hour.

Thanks
Ming
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#8
Possibly. But your RoR will increase by doing so, unless you are reducing your bet size - in which case your win rate will reduce as well.
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#9
Just an update, after a long 3 days at the casino spending a total of 36 hours, we have only made 10 units! but in the process, we have took some massive hit and lost £400 of out £2000 bankroll at one point, so thank **** we recovered !

will keep everyone updated :)

Thanks
Ming
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#10
Another question, is my max bet is at 8 units?

Should i do that, at 8 units for one box ? or bet 4 units in two box? or if the count is extremely good go 8 units in two box?

thanks
Ming
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#11

As you are playing by British rules, I assume that there is no Insurance permitted except
against a dealer Ace EXCEPT when you have been dealt a Blackjack. Is that correct.

If so, this removes the most important Basic Strategy Variation you can make.

It also radically increases your R.O.R.

What say you ?

I know that the British authorities gave the casinos the right to make
their BJ tables more like the American ones, but have they done so ?
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#12
In the Uk, if player has BJ and dealer have an ace. We can opt for even money right away prior to any card being dealt.

From my understanding, at a TC of +4, we always take even money.

After today, we had a great result we are up 305 units or £610.

any advice on our bet spread or anything, feel free to comments !

Thanks everyone

Ming
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#13
Flash - this has been kicked over at some length in the past (the loss in EV of not being able to insure if you don't have a BJ yourself as in the UK game). Although it is of course disadvantageous, and will reduce a longer term win rate, I can't see how it can radically increase the RoR (however one interprets "radically")

Let's consider that:

counts of TC+3 when the insurance option is advantageous only happens less than 10%ish (??) of the time (sorry, don't have my tables with me).

At this count, if when the dealer does show an ace and you don't have a BJ yourself you could insure:-

Some hands would go from a loss to a push (dealer pulls a BJ so you win the insurance bet and lose the main bet)

Some hands will be a reduced win (dealer doesn't get a BJ so you lose the insurance bet but win the main hand).

Some hands will be an increased loss (dealer doesn't get a BJ and you lose the main hand as well).


The net effect of these four factors hardly results in a significant reduction on longer term EVs?? I posted exactly this query on the blackjackforumonline site a while back, and Mr S responded personally. Here's an extract from his reply:

But in a 6-deck game, assuming you were using a count system that provided you with a 1.5% advantage, your overall advantage would not be cut to 1% simply by removing the insurance option. Precisely how much it would be cut would primarily depend on the penetration and your bet spread. Maybe a couple tenths of a percent...? Perhaps someone has a simulation program that they could run some comparative results on showing the gains from counting in various 6D games with and without the insurance option. I don't have the time to run these sims myself right now.

Nobody has yet run two sims and compared the EVs to prove the answer one way or another.

Bearing in mind it seems easier to get away with large (if not huge) betting spreads in the UK, might it not be the case that the reduction in EV caused by only being able to insure a BJ is offset by the ability to get more chips on the felt in high counts without "heat"? - in which case the UK game could be more profitable?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#15
Much like Surrender, Insurance is worth far more to the Card Counter than it is to the average player. Indeed, Basic Strategy players do not use Insurance at all.

This is simply because when you DO take Insurance it will be on your LARGE bets only.
 
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UK-21

Well-Known Member
#16
blazin22 said:
You may find the following link of some use.

http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/math_013.shtml
Thank you for that. Have never seen it before - have read through it with interest. I have to say I'm rather sceptical of the claim that the ENHC rules reduce the win rate by 30%, and that's not withstanding the UK's "can only insure if holding a BJ" rule. And at 0.39%, the OTT HE figure for a six deck game differs from that on the WoO's site too (in actual fact the HE and negative win rate figures for flat betting BS are different??) Thirdly, one of the tables shown indicates that a BR of 1,889 units would be required to keep RoR down to 5% (and 1,355 for the US game) - this is almost three times as many as most other authorities indicate in their books and commentaries on the game.

I'm not saying what is there is wrong, but when holding it up against other sources of info it does look a tad out of place. At this stage I'm still leaning towards the pointer of Mr Snyder, which although I haven't done any detailed calcs tends to fall in line with all of the other numbers I've studied.

Thanks again.
 

blazin22

Active Member
#17
ENHC is a trash game, but its all we have here. Sometimes I can convince them to offer me insurance when I don't have a blackjack, but its not consistent and I guess its a little suspicious asking for it only sometimes. Its usually the experienced dealers that will let you do it, they think its advantageous for them so they don't mind. With a new dealer forget about asking. ENHC isn't worth playing unless you're aggressively wonging and spreading like a maniac. I'll only play if the dealer is showing superior Pen. Napoleons Four decks + good pen is as close to a good game as you'll get in this country.
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#18
Another 2 days of grinding in the casino,

Yesterday, 14 hours from 6pm to 8am in 2 different casino, we manage to break even.

Today, 6 hours from 6pm to midnight, we made £525 quid, so in 4 days we have already made £525 + £610 = £1135.

Surely the result is just too good to be true, so down swing will occur and we will expect it!

Since that it means out bankroll increases to £3000, shall the value of the spread also increases like the following:

(preivous 1 unit = 5 at a BR of £2000, so now 1 unit = 7 at a BR of £3000 ?)

So is it like the following:

TC

1 1 unit =£7
2 2 unit =£15
3 4 unit =£30
4+ 8 unit =£60

Obviously we rounded up the figure for ease to betting purposes!

Any comments will be great!

Thanks
Ming
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#19
ycming said:
Another 2 days of grinding in the casino,

Yesterday, 14 hours from 6pm to 8am in 2 different casino, we manage to break even.

Today, 6 hours from 6pm to midnight, we made £525 quid, so in 4 days we have already made £525 + £610 = £1135.

Surely the result is just too good to be true, so down swing will occur and we will expect it!

Since that it means out bankroll increases to £3000, shall the value of the spread also increases like the following:

(preivous 1 unit = 5 at a BR of £2000, so now 1 unit = 7 at a BR of £3000 ?)

So is it like the following:

TC

1 1 unit =£7
2 2 unit =£15
3 4 unit =£30
4+ 8 unit =£60

Obviously we rounded up the figure for ease to betting purposes!

Any comments will be great!

Thanks
Ming
Don't do it. You posted previously that you and your oppos were £400 quid (200 units @ £2.00) down at one stage. Divide £1,135 by 7 and you get 162. So another swing like that will wipe out your winnings and take you back into the red. How gutted will you be then?

You don't say the total of hours you've played, but if we assume 80 your EV will be in the region of 150 units. You're up 227. You're right, there will be a downswing at some stage.

Stick with your current stakes until you have at least doubled your bankroll. Don't get greedy.

Good luck.
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#20
blazin22 said:
ENHC is a trash game, but its all we have here. Sometimes I can convince them to offer me insurance when I don't have a blackjack, but its not consistent and I guess its a little suspicious asking for it only sometimes. Its usually the experienced dealers that will let you do it, they think its advantageous for them so they don't mind. With a new dealer forget about asking. ENHC isn't worth playing unless you're aggressively wonging and spreading like a maniac. I'll only play if the dealer is showing superior Pen. Napoleons Four decks + good pen is as close to a good game as you'll get in this country.
I think that's a bit harsh. I've played in a Gala where I've had the table to myself, had to play two hands and had 80%+ pen. Those conditions more than compensate for the extra 0.11% edge the house has. I've never come across a dealer who will bend the rules mind. And at the stakes I play, the loss in EV really equates to diddly-squat (at £5.00 a unit that's less than £1.50 for every hundred hands I play - longer term of course - or under one and half units for every 500 hands, or 8 hours, at the felt). So, unless you're playing loads and loads of hours, and play £25+ per unit (perhaps you do?) it's nothing worth sweating over. In layman's terms the long term loss in EV works out at around one and a half units a day. If you're a pro AP, and play 40 hours a week then yes, perhaps you need to invest in a flight to the States.

Napoleon's? Have been told it is the best game in the Smoke, although the staff there are a bit more worldly wise when it comes to spotting smart-ar$es.

On another matter, you never responded to my earlier query re accusing me of working for, or being some sort of shill for, the casino trade in the UK in the chat room a few weeks ago. What was all of that $#it about? Had you been smoking something that evening?
 
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