Sucker said:
Knowingly running the great risk of damaging another person's livelihood, with almost nothing to gain for yourself is not unethical? And don't give me the extremely short-sighted selfish argument that you gain something (table scraps) for the time you're there. By waiting your turn for another day your LONG-TERM EV is much more than TEN-fold.
That's a BS argument. First, "almost nothing to gain for yourself" is nonsense. I have seen many people jump games and win a lot of money. Secondly, there's no guarantee that game is going to be there the next day. The player on the game could smash it and leave nothing for you to go after the next day. Not to mention, if he doesn't, you can bet he'll be there the next day looking around, and the same scenario could emerge over and over. Do you think multiple guys stalking a game and rushing around trying to grab a seat is ultimately going to go much better than someone jumping a game?
Beyond these obvious holes in your argument, trying to frame this as an ethical matter is ridiculous. Just by being a hole carder you are damaging someone else's livelihood. You are probably going to end up getting more than one dealer fired over the course of your career, and you are eating away at other hole-carders' lifetime EV. There are only so many games, and there is only so much money to go around; some of the money you end up making is money that other players will no longer have the opportunity to make. What happens on one game on any given day is just a microcosm of this.
To further see how indefensible your position is, we only need to look at a few other scenarios and inquire about the ethics therein. First, consider the case of the wonging card counter that I brought up before. If he jumps into games in high counts and exits in low counts, he is costing everyone else at that table money. Does that make this practice unethical? Does it make a difference if the victims are ploppies or advantage players? Consider also the case of a 2/1 blackjack promotion. Suppose you arrive and see that another professional is already at the table, betting two hands of table maximum. By some miracle, there is a seat open when you arrive. You could sit down and also bet table maximum but, in doing so, you would cost this other guy money. The two of you betting heavily will draw more attention to the game, and the promotion will shut down at some point when it gets beaten hard enough. If another ploppy took the seat and bet small, this other professional would make more EV, but you would make nothing. What's the ethical play here?
Basically, the ethics of advantage play are a lot more complicated than you're making them out to be. It's not always the case that it's EV maximizing to find someone else on a hole card game and then just leave. Sometimes it is in your best interest to play then and there. It's never in the other guy's best interest, but is that enough to make the practice of jumping his game unethical? No. You're both out there trying to make money doing the exact same thing, and nobody owns the game. If costing someone else EV were enough to make your actions unethical, then you should not be a hole-carder in the first place, because you're inevitably costing other hole-carders money every time you play.
Anyway, I've made my point and you can believe whatever you want. Subjective ethics is nothing new, and I don't see us making any major philosophical breakthroughs here. Just be aware that not everyone shares your opinion.