Simple hole carding idea

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#1
I dont play hole cards, but i just thought of the stupidest idea that would be a benefit, i wouldnt be surprised if all the hole carders in the world thought of this but i thought of it just now so ima spill it.

Often the handicap accessable tables have a lower table and lower chairs than the regular tables, if one of those is right next to a full size table, stealing a chair from it and sitting at the higher table would put your head a lot closer to the felt as the hadicap table stools are often shorter than the regular table stools.

Thats my idea, i hope somebody finds it usefull

Ferret
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#2
That sounds familiar :):

"Find a table that you want to attack. Have you buddy grab the chair from spot one and take it somewhere (It dosen't matter where. People take chairs all the time from tables.) You then put your money in the spot and say "I need to go get a chair" You run over to Baccarat and grab a low chair and put it in your spot. It works."

-onebademf


http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=66330&postcount=36

-Sonny-
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#3
How about a wheelchair

I have read, never did it myself, about holecarders coming into a casino in a wheelchair and going to a regular table where his chin is perhaps slightly lower than the table itself.

If it works, if they get away with it, I really do not know.

ihate17
 

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#5
ihate17 said:
I have read, never did it myself, about holecarders coming into a casino in a wheelchair and going to a regular table where his chin is perhaps slightly lower than the table itself.

If it works, if they get away with it, I really do not know.

ihate17
Ever notice how whenevr theres a space reserved for wheelchair patrons only it always seems to be at first base?

Thats seems kinda stupid
 
#6
From the following, note the lawyers' citation of Zengrifter Interview and the opinion that my tactic was illegal. zg

-------------------------------------------
ADVANTAGE PLAY AND
COMMERCIAL CASINOS


Anthony Cabot*
Robert Hannum**
EXCERPT - Legality​
(Archive copy)

As scienter or fraudulent intent is an element of cheating,[358]should the law criminalize activity where the player simply acts upon information exposed where he or she did not enter the casino with intent to fraudulently obtain and act on this information? The latter is the case where a typical player sitting at the table learns of the value of the dealer's hole card because the dealer makes an error in exposing the card.

Hole-carding professionals and teams are much different than where a player, without fraudulent intent, learns the dealer's hole card because of “a dealer's unintended revelation of his cards.”[359] Here, cheaters play the game with the intent of learning the dealer's hole card by undertaking some act to either learn the hole card where the dealer is properly protecting it or by using the hold card techniques that accentuate poor dealing. Note, for example, this quote from an interview with a hole carder:
Another cute ruse, I used a few times in the `80s, is posing as a wheelchair-ridden muscular-dystrophy victim during the week of the Jerry Lewis telethon. I'd roll up to the table, eyes level with the felt. Using spasmodic movements and twisted posture I announce in a strained voice that I was the 1964 Jerry Lewis Muscular Dystrophy “poster boy.” Of course the primary reason for the act was to have my eyes level with the felt to be able to see the dealer's hole card flashing with each round.[360]
Therefore, attempting to acquire knowledge not typically or readily available to other players that provides an advantage in determining or predicting what was intended to be a random event should be illegal and unenforceable if the player uses any artificial or deliberate means to gain the advantage such as mirrors or spotters.

An argument can be made that a typical player that learns of the dealer's hole card because of a dealer's error is no less of a thief than a person who cashes a $100 check and knowingly keeps the extra $900 when the bank clerk mistakes it for $1000. In theory, the player that uses such information forms a fraudulent intent when he or she uses the information to gain the advantage created by the mistake. Moreover, using a person's mistake to that person or his or her employer's disadvantage is unethical.

[360] Barfarkel, The Zengrifter Interview, at http://www.cardcounter.com/interview_Zen_Grifter.htm (Archive copy) (last visited May 4, 2005).
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#7
zengrifter said:
An argument can be made that a typical player that learns of the dealer's hole card because of a dealer's error is no less of a thief than a person who cashes a $100 check and knowingly keeps the extra $900 when the bank clerk mistakes it for $1000. In theory, the player that uses such information forms a fraudulent intent when he or she uses the information to gain the advantage created by the mistake. Moreover, using a person's mistake to that person or his or her employer's disadvantage is unethical.
I have a problem with this analogy. If a mistake is made in your favor in a financial transaction, yes you should rectify the error. And if you hand a bartender a 10 and ask for change of a 20, this is clear fraud. But BJ is a game. The heart of most games is taking advantage of opponents' mistakes. Further, in ancient games like Chess, Gin, Bridge/Whist and Poker, purposely creating situations where your opponent is likely to make errors is basic strategy. (Also true in political debates.) This is clearly not "fraud."
 

Brock Windsor

Well-Known Member
#8
Wheelchairs

What is the consensus on the legality of using a wheelchair to hole card? I've got a chair but haven't tried it yet. My concern is the casino would say the wheelchair is an advantage device like a mirror or camera and thus illegal. What say the masses?
-BW
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#9
QFIT said:
I have a problem with this analogy. If a mistake is made in your favor in a financial transaction, yes you should rectify the error. And if you hand a bartender a 10 and ask for change of a 20, this is clear fraud. But BJ is a game. The heart of most games is taking advantage of opponents' mistakes. Further, in ancient games like Chess, Gin, Bridge/Whist and Poker, purposely creating situations where your opponent is likely to make errors is basic strategy. (Also true in political debates.) This is clearly not "fraud."
In chess I purposely start-up conversations, when I make certain plays. Or even sometimes I go as far to "accidentaly" knock over a piece, to cause a distraction, while moving one of my pieces.

PS: You can look for JP w/the chinese hat, @ yahoo games, for a friendly game of chess.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#10
Not a lawyer, nor did I spend the evening in a Holiday Inn Express

Brock Windsor said:
What is the consensus on the legality of using a wheelchair to hole card? I've got a chair but haven't tried it yet. My concern is the casino would say the wheelchair is an advantage device like a mirror or camera and thus illegal. What say the masses?
-BW
But I do agree with you if the only purpose of the wheelchair is to gain knowledge of the hole card. Seems similar to a shinner. Only reason to have a mirror at the table or a wheelchair at the table, see the hole card. Sounds like cheating.

Now if you happen to be in need of that chair it becomes a case of lose-lose for the casino to try and prosecute a poor handicapped person who just happened to run into a sloppy dealer, but if you do not need it, I think they would jump all over you.

ihate17
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#11
Wouldn't those scooter type things people use in casinos be the same?Lots of elderly people that don't need a wheelchair use them as they can't walk great distances. Just do a lot of hit and running.
 
#12
Many casinos insist that you move from wheelchair to table seat, offering lowrise tables for wheelchair players.

But to be on the safe side - get a doctor's order that you use the chair or scooter because of a back or pain condition.

But when I did it I really twisted my posture - head sideways low - to make it seem 'natural' that I was practically laying my head on the felt. zg
 

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#13
I once saw a TRIPLE amputee sitting in a stool and not in his wheelchair, So this may be true that you cant sit in your wheelchair, I was cheering the guy on for being a successful blackjack player wiht his one and only limb to signal for hits and stands. He was playing bs but he won some money.
 

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#16
This sounds kinda unfeasable, but perhaps using the reflection off the glass of your watch could give youa good view. Im sure having a watch with a miror on it woudl be a dead givaway, but what if you happened to be wearing a watch tht is semireflective? or perhaps you coudl have one made with a concave shaped glass to somehwat magnify what you see?
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#17
Ferretnparrot said:
This sounds kinda unfeasable, but perhaps using the reflection off the glass of your watch could give youa good view. Im sure having a watch with a miror on it woudl be a dead givaway, but what if you happened to be wearing a watch tht is semireflective?
That would work, but it is definitely illegal. :(

-Sonny-
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#18
a certain casino that i frequent has small shiny brass-like signs that denote the table min/max. they are not mounted to the table. one day i picked one up looked at it and then sat it back down. just happened to notice that the reflection of the sign lined up perfectly with the dealer's hole card.
you may not believe this but i did not attempt to use it in anyway.
it was tempting though. :cat:
i suppose that would have been illegal.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#19
shadroch said:
Wouldn't those scooter type things people use in casinos be the same?Lots of elderly people that don't need a wheelchair use them as they can't walk great distances. Just do a lot of hit and running.
if the count tanks or the dealer pisses you off you could always ram the table and spill drinks everywhere....make it a literal hit and run!
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#20
Ferretnparrot said:
I dont play hole cards, but i just thought of the stupidest idea that would be a benefit, i wouldnt be surprised if all the hole carders in the world thought of this but i thought of it just now so ima spill it.

Often the handicap accessable tables have a lower table and lower chairs than the regular tables, if one of those is right next to a full size table, stealing a chair from it and sitting at the higher table would put your head a lot closer to the felt as the hadicap table stools are often shorter than the regular table stools.

Thats my idea, i hope somebody finds it usefull

Ferret
Once I played with such a fake handicap, it is one of my best nights. But it started very bad for me, I sat next to this guy in the wheel chair, who was in the first base. His play doesn't make any sense to me first. Not counting. Not Basic Strategy. But his chips kept piling. It is like he knew dealer's down cad. In general, it hurt me a little more than helped because I bust my stiff hands more than I should. Eventually, I figured it out he is a hole carder. I can guess dealer's down card based on his play and play my hand accordingly. This guy has about 15% advantage.
 
Top