ultimate edge

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#61
Devil's advocate. This argument breaks down in comparison to Poker. In Poker, you also scout games. You also use every bit of information you can about an opponent, including his history. You certainly look for an opponent's tells. But, you do not try to look at hidden cards or scout for sloppy dealers.
 

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#62
QFIT said:
Devil's advocate. This argument breaks down in comparison to Poker. In Poker, you also scout games. You also use every bit of information you can about an opponent, including his history. You certainly look for an opponent's tells. But, you do not try to look at hidden cards or scout for sloppy dealers.
Damn, I've been playing poker all wrong..:eyepatch::whip::laugh:
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
#64
QFIT said:
Devil's advocate. This argument breaks down in comparison to Poker. In Poker, you also scout games. You also use every bit of information you can about an opponent, including his history. You certainly look for an opponent's tells. But, you do not try to look at hidden cards or scout for sloppy dealers.
This is a good point, but I don't think you can look at poker as a reasonable analog to casino table games. In poker, you're playing at a level playing field (minus rake, time fees, etc.), and you simply want to be better than the players you're playing against. In that way, it's similar to other one-on-one sports that you might play where skill is the deciding factor in one's victory. In casino games, you're starting at a disadvantage. Without using techniques that casinos feel are not in the sprit of the game, you can not gain an advantage. Casinos gladly offer games heavily rigged in their favor—sometimes using deceptive tactics, like promoting games that appear to be liberal blackjack games—and take every opportunity to exploit players' weaknesses. Free drinks? The more the better for the average gambler. Soft lighting, no clocks, non-stop stimulation? Keep the people in there as long as you can and in as much of a state of disorientation and recklessness as possible. Who does the casino extend the majority of their perks and freebies to? The biggest losers/suckers. For example, who gets the most mailers and promos: low-limit table game players, or slot players? Casinos scout for weaknesses as well.

Now, I know that this is starting to look like a two-wrongs-make-a-right scenario, but I really don't feel that's the case. The conditions offered by the casino are the conditions you may play under. If a casino identifies me as an advantage player, they may ask me to leave. If they identify a dealer error, they may correct it. As long as I'm only using the information in front of me, I don't see an ethical issue.

As a side question for players that feel HC plays are unethical: if you found a slot/VP/BJ machine with an incorrect payout that worked in your favor, would you play it?
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#65
You make good points. But, I'm not convinced, from an ethical point of view, that casino actions are in any way relevant. The casinos have every right to make a game unbeatable. Just as lotteries are nearly always unbeatable. Of course, it is blindingly stupid for casinos to make games unbeatable. Thorp did more for casinos than billions in goofy advertisements. The mere fact that BJ can be beaten has convinced millions of visitors to spend billions of dollars, even though they usually know they personally don't have an edge, simply because an edge can exist. No one will ever know how many "real" jobs have been created by the discovery of card counting.

Yes, casinos try to convince you that gambling is good and ply you with free liquor. And car companies try to convince you that you MUST have a new car to keep up with the Joneses even though your old car works perfectly well, and there exist 43 types of toothpaste that are all gentle abrasives, and how many companies sell WATER (which falls out of the sky), and on and on. What matters from an ethical viewpoint is your own actions.

Note: This is just a general opinion on the subject, unrelated to my opinions of HC.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#66
QFIT said:
...Yes, casinos try to convince you that gambling is good and ply you with free liquor.
Those two casino practices may be highly unethical. So are these: Setting slots on 14% HE. Advertising games as "tremendous fun" with young models shown having a great time at the roulette table, for example. Advertising the 'fact' that money is very easy to win in a casino. 'Everyone gets lucky' and so on.

Swapping BJ dealers around when it suits them - to try to influence (to their advantage) a 'hot' table. Calling for a deliberately slow dealer, when it suits them. Calling for a very fast dealer, when it suits them. Using intimidatory tactics when it suits them; such as the appearance of suits suddenly, who breathe down your neck. The use of devices designed to hamper, identify, and disrupt players who are simply using their own minds more efficiently than hapless plops. The list goes on and on.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#68
QFIT said:
Yes, casinos are obviously sons of bitches. But, I'm not going to follow their lead.
Obviously sound advice. But... I can't seem to throw it - whether it's a kind of anti-authority culture thing, or I just liked Robin Hood; I feel compelled to fight fire with fire... and to dispense some form of justice as a funnel through which flows... their karma. I hope. When I eventually show up at The Big Casino In The Sky, may the Voodoo Gods have mercy on my miserable, sinning soul. :flame:
 
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