Beware of Sands Casino Reno

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#1
Imagine you're playing single deck blackjack at your favorite casino. You bet $100 and get A-8, and the dealer has a 5 as an upcard. You double down and catch the dream card, a deuce! The dealer draws to 17, starts to pay you, but the floor comes running over & instructs the dealer to take your money, because you have an ace, an eight, and a deuce, for a total of eleven, NOT 21! After all the arguing, they STILL refuse to pay you, so it comes down to filing a complaint with the gaming commission. The gaming commissions' final ruling: You did NOT have 21, you had 11, and the casino does NOT have to pay you! It seems that this particular casino suddenly came up with a special ruling that an ace is NOT necessarily worth 1 or 11, in certain cases the casino has the right to declare that it's only worth 1.

Believe it or not, this exact scenario DID occur, at the Sands Regency in Reno, Nevada. Here is the link to the entire story, including the Nevada Gaming Boards' ruling: http://sweatthemoney.com/sands1.html

BTW, I personally went into the Sands this morning and asked the pit boss on duty if it was true. He verified that it WAS true, and he DID remember the incident, although it wasn't HIM who was on duty at the time. Funny thing, he actually did try to somehow justify the ruling, although I could see it in his eyes that he really only half-believed himself.

Do casinos cheat? You make the decision.
 

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#2
I dont play many D9,10,11 games but dont most D9,10,11 casinos just simply not allow a double down in this situation? I feel like the casino should not have allowed the double down in the first place.
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#3
I live in Reno and play here quite a bit. Most northern Nevada casinos allow doubling on 10 & 11 only, some of them allow doubling on 9, 10, & 11; and it's rare for a northern Nevada casino to allow doubling on any two cards. Obviously, card counting is not very attractive in Reno because of these strict doubling rules.

However, in EVERY SINGLE CASINO that allows doubling on 9, 10, & 11, you can double on soft 19 and soft 20. Depending upon the count, and the dealer's up card, it's often correct to double on soft 19, and even soft 20. You can also count blackjack as 11, and then double, if you wish; although this is obviously never correct (except possibly in some of the most advanced AP techniques).

The point of my thread; was that if this article is true,it appears that this casino made up a rule ON THE SPOT, in order to "steal" $400 from this player. Since reading this article, I've made a point to mention it to many casino dealers in the other clubs, and every single one of them agrees that one of the most basic rules of blackjack is that an ace counts as 1 or 11 at the PLAYERS' discretion, and NOT at the CASINOS' discretion. And, of course; the player has the right to change the value of the ace as the hand progresses.

The overall consensus in the industry seems to be that, if this article is true, the Sands has pulled off a stunt which, if not illegal; is certainly very unethical.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#4
I have had this same thing happen to me at the Sands in Reno. It may have been 7 or 8 years ago.

In some venues it is better to just not double A8 because it brings immediate heat.
 
#5
I've seen even worse that that. At the Cal-Neva in Reno about 5 years ago, I watched a tourist double on a soft 15, catch a 10, and the dealer convinced him that he busted and picked up his bet. I was a very inexperienced AP at the time but something told me I was being dealt cards by a felon and I had better get out of there posthaste.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#6
I can see the casino's point. If you can only double on 9,10, and 11, and you have an A8, it has to be a 9 to double.
 

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#7
Sucker said:
The point of my thread; was that if this article is true,it appears that this casino made up a rule ON THE SPOT, in order to "steal" $400 from this player. Since reading this article, I've made a point to mention it to many casino dealers in the other clubs, and every single one of them agrees that one of the most basic rules of blackjack is that an ace counts as 1 or 11 at the PLAYERS' discretion, and NOT at the CASINOS' discretion. And, of course; the player has the right to change the value of the ace as the hand progresses.

The overall consensus in the industry seems to be that, if this article is true, the Sands has pulled off a stunt which, if not illegal; is certainly very unethical.
I'm pretty sure I've heard of this rule before, though I can't remember where.

If it was an ad hoc ruling, that certainly would be bad. If it is part of the official house rules, but poorly advertised, that woule be pretty bad too.

But I can't say I agree with your assessment of the rule, per se.

Ordinarily, player discretion doesn't really come into play until either -
  • the hand is over because you choose to stand on the higher total
  • or the hand would be over if you treated the ace as 11, because you would be busted. So you treat it as a 1, and proceed from there.
When you hit a soft hand, you're not treating the ace as one thing or the other; it is both things at once, like schroedinger's cat. :)

With the D9 rule, it makes perfect sense to insist that, if the player chooses to take advantage of the rule that says you may double down on a total of 9 or 10, then that is the point at which the player has decided to call the ace a 1, and there can be no changing your mind later. (i.e. you are doubling on 9, not on 9-or-19.)
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#9
Sucker said:
I live in Reno and play here quite a bit. Most northern Nevada casinos allow doubling on 10 & 11 only, some of them allow doubling on 9, 10, & 11; and it's rare for a northern Nevada casino to allow doubling on any two cards.
What part of Reno do you live in? Check out the DD's at The Legacy and El Dorado, or maybe SD's at Boomtown and Rail City.If that's not enough, then head over to the Grand Sierra, Western Village, Alamo and Ascuaga's. They're all DOA.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#10
Sucker said:
However, in EVERY SINGLE CASINO that allows doubling on 9, 10, & 11, you can double on soft 19 and soft 20.
Afraid not.

There is a single deck game around here that is D9, they do not allow doubling on soft 19.

They claim an ace counts as "11" unless it would bring a player over 21.
 

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#11
First of all you are moron for doubling down on A-8 secondly the rules say double down on 9,10,11 at the sands regency on single deck not double any two cars so your soft 19 counted as 9 when you doubled down. You should never mess with a 19 soft or not. You can mess with a soft 18 if doubling on any two cards is allowed but never mess with 19 or higher.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#12
Cardcounter said:
First of all you are moron for doubling down on A-8 secondly the rules say double down on 9,10,11 at the sands regency on single deck not double any two cars so your soft 19 counted as 9 when you doubled down. You should never mess with a 19 soft or not. You can mess with a soft 18 if doubling on any two cards is allowed but never mess with 19 or higher.
You are mistaken, it is BS to double soft 19 vs dealer 6 in an H17 game.

Also the index for doubling soft 19 vs 5 or 6 isn't very high in any game.
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#13
Cardcounter said:
First of all you are moron for doubling down on A-8
Wow. You actually believe this? And your user name is "Cardcounter"?

Cardcounter said:
You should never mess with a 19 soft or not. You can mess with a soft 18 if doubling on any two cards is allowed but never mess with 19 or higher.
You shouldn't try to give advice in an area in which you know nothing about. It only tends to destroy your credibility in other areas.

Fact is; it's the correct BASIC STRATEGY play to double down on A-8 vs. a dealer's 6 in a single deck game. If you're counting cards and the deck is rich enough, it's ALSO correct to double on A-8 with ANY number of decks, against ANY dealer's small card. When counting, it's even correct sometimes to double on A-9!

No wonder I seldom post on this site......
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#14
bj bob said:
What part of Reno do you live in? Check out the DD's at The Legacy and El Dorado, or maybe SD's at Boomtown and Rail City.If that's not enough, then head over to the Grand Sierra, Western Village, Alamo and Ascuaga's. They're all DOA.
I live in NW Reno, near Boomtown. And you're right, there are a few clubs which allow DOA, and with the Reno casinos trying to compete in this economy, I expect a few more to pop up. The truck stop even has a single deck game with surrender, but the limit is only $100 and if you spread as much as one to four, you'll get shuffled on.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#15
Sucker said:
I live in NW Reno, near Boomtown. And you're right, there are a few clubs which allow DOA, and with the Reno casinos trying to compete in this economy, I expect a few more to pop up. The truck stop even has a single deck game with surrender, but the limit is only $100 and if you spread as much as one to four, you'll get shuffled on.
I'm glad to see we're on the same page. Now returning to the original issue of dd A-8. Actually it's not that much of a deal since it only occurs about 1 in 1,000 hands. That's 10 hours of BJ and the count has to be right to boot. The last time I remember encountering that situation was way back at South Shore at Barney's (cf/Zg) and I did have a nice long explanation from the BP. He did in fact end by pointing to the sign which read: Double on 9, 10, 11-No soft doubles.
 

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#16
That is very marginally play and if your soft 19 counts as 9 when you double down it is correct to stay. Doubling a soft 19 vs a 6 is marginal play even if you can use the ace any way you please, plus it is an extremely unusual play 99.99% of players with that have that hand against a 6 will stay. Including me I have only doubled it once. The play is so close that if you have 2 or more decks the correct play is to stay.
 
#20
greetings from the southern island
Casino Canberra has a table for pontoon. The dealer makes it clear when doubling that the Ace is now worth one. No double then it is worth one or eleven. In BJ the ace is always one/eleven.

yours
 
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