Bank roll and units

#1
Hello every one. I been practicing and reading alot of books on card counting (burning the tables and black jack blue print are my favorites) and I've see different things about what unit you should use for your bank roll. I've read you should have a 500 unit, 400 unit, or even 1000 unit bank roll. I liked the idea of the 1000 unit bank roll but when I ran the numbers, I would only have a $5 unit with the 1000 unit bank roll and its kind of discouraging because alot of places have higher miniums then that. If I was to use the 500 unit approach, I would have a $10 unit, I would be able to play at more places but at the same time I don't want to over bet and fall into that trap. My question is what do you guys suggest, what did you start with, did some of the swings come close to cleaning you out....etc. Any advice or stories would be highly appreciated, thank you for your help.
 

PierceNation

Well-Known Member
#2
Hiya Kebo,

1000 unit bankroll is an optimal choice. By spreading 1-10 you will be betting roughly 'half kelly' making your RoR about 1-2%. If you reassess your bets every swing of say 10% or so, you will increase optimal growth whilst still keeping a very low RoR.

If you find it difficult to find tables to suit your minimum, providing you are in a busy casino with several tables, you can 'Wong' in on decks.

For example, Lets assume you are playing a $10 minimum. Count the cards from behind the table, when the true count reaches such that it requires you to place your 2 unit bet, go ahead. When it reaches minimum bet requirements, leave the table. This way you can play to your bankroll without overbetting, until your BR increases enough to afford the $10 minimums.

Also I think it would be very beneficial for you to work out your expected standard deviation when you play. That way, of you drop 150 units in an hour, you know its normal and not because you are overbetting, playing inaccurately or cheated.

Your SD per hand is the square root of variance per hand. You can expect to be within 3SDs 99.7% of the time.

Hope this helps.

Pierce.
 
#3
So a thousand unit bank roll red chipping is what you should start with. With a 5k bank like you suggest you will be able to play a 1-10 spread easily.

However, as a way to stretch your bankroll, see immediate results and lower you RoR, I would be a wong in player till you at least have a 10 k bankroll.

TO answer your question about how much did you start with, I started with 3k split into $500 trip bankrolls. I have lost that since then, but I had won so much more. I have seen people start with $800, infact I know of a 2 person team who started with their last $800 and now they make a living teaching people the game and getting barred from just about everywhere. The game can be very very kind to you if you play it right.
 
#4
PierceNation said:
Hiya Kebo,

1000 unit bankroll is an optimal choice. By spreading 1-10 you will be betting roughly 'half kelly' making your RoR about 1-2%. If you reassess your bets every swing of say 10% or so, you will increase optimal growth whilst still keeping a very low RoR.

If you find it difficult to find tables to suit your minimum, providing you are in a busy casino with several tables, you can 'Wong' in on decks.

For example, Lets assume you are playing a $10 minimum. Count the cards from behind the table, when the true count reaches such that it requires you to place your 2 unit bet, go ahead. When it reaches minimum bet requirements, leave the table. This way you can play to your bankroll without overbetting, until your BR increases enough to afford the $10 minimums.

Also I think it would be very beneficial for you to work out your expected standard deviation when you play. That way, of you drop 150 units in an hour, you know its normal and not because you are overbetting, playing inaccurately or cheated.

Your SD per hand is the square root of variance per hand. You can expect to be within 3SDs 99.7% of the time.

Hope this helps.

Pierce.

Thank you for your help. My spread is going to be at least 1-12. I will be wonging in for the most part. I have a simply standard deviation formula (1.1xunit{xsquare root of hands played}). I don't have any software to run any numbers yet. I think I'm going to go with the 1000 unit bank roll.
 
#5
ringlejames said:
So a thousand unit bank roll red chipping is what you should start with. With a 5k bank like you suggest you will be able to play a 1-10 spread easily.

However, as a way to stretch your bankroll, see immediate results and lower you RoR, I would be a wong in player till you at least have a 10 k bankroll.

TO answer your question about how much did you start with, I started with 3k split into $500 trip bankrolls. I have lost that since then, but I had won so much more. I have seen people start with $800, infact I know of a 2 person team who started with their last $800 and now they make a living teaching people the game and getting barred from just about everywhere. The game can be very very kind to you if you play it right.
Thank you for your input. How long did it take you to double your bank roll? How bad were your swings?
 
#6
Good for you man. However the software to me has become in-valuable. If I was to put a price on CVCX, CV DATA, CASINO VERITE BLACKJACK it would be way more than qfit is asking for. You can fine tune your play as well as play blackjack.

The free demo, haha. Missing 5's and jack's. And not too accurate on the simms

If you ever want to learn just about any system you can think of that exists or any system you want to personally come up with, you can play it, sim it and learn it without buying all the books. It is by far an amazing piece of software that pays for itself.
 
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#7
kebo15706 said:
Thank you for your input. How long did it take you to double your bank roll? How bad were your swings?
My first trip I lost my first $500 but it also confirmed that it would supplement my income quite nicely. I had 4 winning trips after that each trip the wins were higher than $500 but not as high as $1400. Then next 2 were losers for $300 a piece. The next trip I brought everything I had which was a little under 6k and won $1700. Next trip I lost $500. Then won $300. Then won $900. Then another $900. Then lost $1200, then won $2400. Then won a little over 4k, then lost 2k. Then won $700. After that I stopped keeping track. At that point after trip expenses some lost to roulette and a whooping $112 profit playing craps I was at around 10k. I then started to spend what I won. I went into the game knowing it was going to be a long term investment, but over the past 2 years I have kind of forgotten and just spent my winnings instead of reinvesting, no that I necessarily need to, I just don't need to work as much, so I dont. But in the past 2- 2 1/2 years I have been down as much as 3k and with my personal bank I have been up as much as 19k. With a bankroll I used from a contract job, I have been up quite a bit more, like alllllllllllllottttttttt more. But I had tsay goodbye to it as it was not mine. :( Total overall 4 year profit, 21k
 
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#8
ringlejames said:
My first trip I lost my first $500 but it also confirmed that it would supplement my income quite nicely. I had 4 winning trips after that each trip the wins were higher than $500 but not as high as $1400. Then next 2 were losers for $300 a piece. The next trip I brought everything I had which was a little under 6k and won $1700. Next trip I lost $500. Then won $300. Then won $900. Then another $900. Then lost $1200, then won $2400. Then won a little over 4k, then lost 2k. Then won $700. After that I stopped keeping track. At that point after trip expenses some lost to roulette and a whooping $112 profit playing craps I was at around 10k. I then started to spend what I won. I went into the game knowing it was going to be a long term investment, but over the past 2 years I have kind of forgotten and just spent my bankroll, no that I necessarily need to, I just don't need to work as much, so I dont. But in the past 2- 2 1/2 years I have been down as much as 3k and with my personal bank I have been up as much as 19k. With a bankroll I used from a contract job, I have been up quite a bit more, like alllllllllllllottttttttt more. But I had tsay goodbye to it as it was not mine. :( Total overall 4 year profit, 21k
That is very motivating. That is a great return on your investment. Thank you for giving me a snap shot of your swings. Your kind of results is what I'm hoping for.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#9
I have been using about 200 to 250 units per trip session without any problem over the past several months. I did have one session where I nearly lost 240 units, but that was for 20 to 30 hours of play. Also, I had a larger losing day, but that was coupled with VP losses, which I do not do anymore. My trip bankroll is figured on $25 min games, so if I find myself losing I can drop down to a $10 or $15 game, which gives me relatively more units to play with (333 to 500 units based on $5,000 bankroll). The trouble is, oftentimes, the lower limit games have poorer rules.
 
#11
terminology

PierceNation said:
1000 unit bankroll is an optimal choice. By spreading 1-10 you will be betting roughly 'half kelly' making your RoR about 1-2%. If you reassess your bets every swing of say 10% or so, you will increase optimal growth whilst still keeping a very low RoR
Pierce.
Isn't optimal Kelly?

Half Kelly isn't a 1 to 2% ror?
Half Kelly fixed would be? 1.83%

Kelly; or fractional Kelly, implies resizing, we have no ror, just risk of drawdown. Then table minimums are an issue.
 

PierceNation

Well-Known Member
#12
blackjack avenger said:
Half Kelly isn't a 1 to 2% ror?
Half Kelly fixed would be? 1.83%
Thats what I meant, at a fixed amount its 1-2%, bad communication on my behalf. Obviously if he readjusts at intervals as I suggested he will enjoy a much lower RoR, as close to 0 as possible.
 
#13
blackjack avenger said:
Isn't optimal Kelly?

Half Kelly isn't a 1 to 2% ror?
Half Kelly fixed would be? 1.83%

Kelly; or fractional Kelly, implies resizing, we have no ror, just risk of drawdown. Then table minimums are an issue.
Can you explain exactly what Kelly betting is? I heard that name being thrown around before but I don't know exactly what it is.
 
#14
references

kebo15706 said:
Can you explain exactly what Kelly betting is? I heard that name being thrown around before but I don't know exactly what it is.
Any of the major BJ books should mention Kelly?

It's betting to achieve max expected log growth of bank

For BJ its basically
EV/variance
As you win or lose you adjust your bets

Generally not recommend in the real world due to human error & for BJ, table min and max interferes greatly in applying Kelly.
 
#15
Often asked question

This question of what a sufficient bankroll consists of has been thrown out there time after time. Whether a bankroll can be replenished or not is obviously a factor on where to keep your ROR but I see these posts about people splitting hairs on what they can slide by with for a minimum bankroll and know that they may face a difficult road.

An example of this is that post where the player is saying, "I quit! I give up! I just lost a huge portion of all I have won in the last "X" period of time! I am going to do something else, such as start up a hotdog and t-shirt stand on the beach of Pago Pago, American Samoa!" They wrote that post because the swings are scary at times, losses are frustrating and the smaller your bankroll is the scarier it is.

When I see a success story of someone turning a relatively small bankroll of a few hundred dollars into something significant, I know they have beat the odds and done well in the short term. It could have just as easily gone in the other direction and it often does. I think we can all agree that a 1000 unit minimum bankroll is the way to go but even that is very shaky, perhaps insufficient and that you have to be prepared huge and crazy swings. Falter just a tiny bit as far as actual skill and you can have devastating losses.

How much bankroll is enough in my opinion? Enough that you can absorb any loss along the way without it affecting you emotionally like that guy giving up and starting the hotdog stand. Enough that you don't even know what your actual bankroll is and would have to get out a calculator, a clipboard and spend a couple hours trying to figure it out. Enough that to have a truly accurate figure you have to hire an accountant. Enough that you never fixate on any short-term results and are able to look at annual results and long range projections instead.

I wrote some sort of words to that effect once and a (young) player said, "If I had that sort of money I wouldn't have to play blackjack!" I had to reflect on this and reflect upon my mindset at that same age to understand his viewpoint of "the here and now", the desire for instant gratification which detracts from clarified conceptualization of a path that could take many years of time and investment and only works if you give it 100% and execute things flawlessly. Add to and pile up your bankroll... when it hits a million or so in the course of many years, you know you have truly achieved something.

I was on a plane ride once where I was seated next to a 20 something young guy that was talking to the person next to him about blackjack. He was talking as if he knew what he was talking about so I asked, "So... just how good a blackjack player are you?" He mentioned that he knows how to count and blah blah blah... He even said he was really good at it. What else could I say to him other than "Is that no sh*t!?!" He went on to explain that he was in Vegas with his buddy who was essentially following his cue on betting and strategy since he was the counter and more experienced player. I pulled out two decks of cards that I had with me and did a card-counting demonstration of Tarzan count. He was a little blown away at it all and he reminded me of so many other 20 something year olds that think they know it all but know nothing, including me... I was one of those once!

When the money is tighter you will sweat losses along the way. Have as large a bankroll as you can possibly have and build on it... go for the long haul. Most counters fail for various reasons and one of those reasons is insufficient funds. You can be the best blackjack player in the world and still take crazy, horrific losses in the short-term. You need enough money backing you up that you can shrug off any loss along the way rather than wanting to quit and muse over the possibilities of starting up a hotdog stand someplace. You need years of diligence to see the long run and there is no instant gratification in this game.
 
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kewljason

Well-Known Member
#16
Excellent and comprehensive post Tarzan. Undoubedly newer players as well as some of us that have been playing for a while, don't have enough education and information on this, perhaps the most important element of the game.

In light of recent discussions on the definition of unit, I do wonder about the statement "1000 unit minimum bankroll is the way to go". I am not bringing this up again to be difficult, it is just that I realized during this discussion that what I have been referring to as my unit ($25) is only my minimum wager. My unit, as defined by bigplayer and Richard Munchkin is much larger than that ($100-$125). And looking at it this makes much more sense. The unit, what you raise per half percent of advantage should be much bigger than the minimum wager. So does this "1000 unit minimum" recommendation refer to the actual unit or does it refer to 1000 minimum wagers? :confused: If it refers to 1000 minimum wagers it is far too risky for my comfort.
 
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#17
kewljason said:
Excellent and comprehensive post Tarzan. Undoubedly newer players as well as some of us that have been playing for a while, don't have enough education and information on this, perhaps the most important element of the game.
You do have a point kewl jason, but it dont matter how big your bankroll is or how well you manage it, if your mind is not rested and you are suffering severe fatigue, then that interrupts your situational awareness. And in any profession, from psychology to medicine, to war, to school, or to even posting on a blackjack forum, situational awareness is the most important thing you should worry about in any profession.

If one does not have a sharp mind then it does not matter if you Bill Gates or an actor or a physicist or a blackjack AP. No amount of skill or bankroll, or studying or management is going to overcome a fatigued mind.

Just my two cents. Now I have The big book of blackjack to read by arnold palmer, so if I post it should be me asking something, and I should be a lot less opinionated in the days to come.

Cheers,
Hope all is well,
Ringlejames
 
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#18
Tarzan said:
This question of what a sufficient bankroll consists of has been thrown out there time after time. Whether a bankroll can be replenished or not is obviously a factor on where to keep your ROR but I see these posts about people splitting hairs on what they can slide by with for a minimum bankroll and know that they may face a difficult road.

An example of this is that post where the player is saying, "I quit! I give up! I just lost a huge portion of all I have won in the last "X" period of time! I am going to do something else, such as start up a hotdog and t-shirt stand on the beach of Pago Pago, American Samoa!" They wrote that post because the swings are scary at times, losses are frustrating and the smaller your bankroll is the scarier it is.

When I see a success story of someone turning a relatively small bankroll of a few hundred dollars into something significant, I know they have beat the odds and done well in the short term. It could have just as easily gone in the other direction and it often does. I think we can all agree that a 1000 unit minimum bankroll is the way to go but even that is very shaky, perhaps insufficient and that you have to be prepared huge and crazy swings. Falter just a tiny bit as far as actual skill and you can have devastating losses.

How much bankroll is enough in my opinion? Enough that you can absorb any loss along the way without it affecting you emotionally like that guy giving up and starting the hotdog stand. Enough that you don't even know what your actual bankroll is and would have to get out a calculator, a clipboard and spend a couple hours trying to figure it out. Enough that to have a truly accurate figure you have to hire an accountant. Enough that you never fixate on any short-term results and are able to look at annual results and long range projections instead.

I wrote some sort of words to that effect once and a (young) player said, "If I had that sort of money I wouldn't have to play blackjack!" I had to reflect on this and reflect upon my mindset at that same age to understand his viewpoint of "the here and now", the desire for instant gratification which detracts from clarified conceptualization of a path that could take many years of time and investment and only works if you give it 100% and execute things flawlessly. Add to and pile up your bankroll... when it hits a million or so in the course of many years, you know you have truly achieved something.

I was on a plane ride once where I was seated next to a 20 something young guy that was talking to the person next to him about blackjack. He was talking as if he knew what he was talking about so I asked, "So... just how good a blackjack player are you?" He mentioned that he knows how to count and blah blah blah... He even said he was really good at it. What else could I say to him other than "Is that no sh*t!?!" He went on to explain that he was in Vegas with his buddy who was essentially following his cue on betting and strategy since he was the counter and more experienced player. I pulled out two decks of cards that I had with me and did a card-counting demonstration of Tarzan count. He was a little blown away at it all and he reminded me of so many other 20 something year olds that think they know it all but know nothing, including me... I was one of those once!

When the money is tighter you will sweat losses along the way. Have as large a bankroll as you can possibly have and build on it... go for the long haul. Most counters fail for various reasons and one of those reasons is insufficient funds. You can be the best blackjack player in the world and still take crazy, horrific losses in the short-term. You need enough money backing you up that you can shrug off any loss along the way rather than wanting to quit and muse over the possibilities of starting up a hotdog stand someplace. You need years of diligence to see the long run and there is no instant gratification in this game.
Very well said. Thank you for your input. You made alot of good points.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#19
kewljason said:
Excellent and comprehensive post Tarzan. Undoubedly newer players as well as some of us that have been playing for a while, don't have enough education and information on this, perhaps the most important element of the game.

In light of recent discussions on the definition of unit, I do wonder about the statement "1000 unit minimum bankroll is the way to go". I am not bringing this up again to be difficult, it is just that I realized during this discussion that what I have been referring to as my unit ($25) is only my minimum wager. My unit, as defined by bigplayer and Richard Munchkin is much larger than that ($100-$125). And looking at it this makes much more sense. The unit, what you raise per half percent of advantage should be much bigger than the minimum wager. So does this "1000 unit minimum" recommendation refer to the actual unit or does it refer to 1000 minimum wagers? :confused: If it refers to 1000 minimum wagers it is far too risky for my comfort.
I think a 1,000 of the larger unit you described as the bigplayer/Munchkin unit is overkill.
 

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#20
kebo15706 said:
Thanks for quoting Tarzan's post in its entirety!

It really helps to see it in italics: I appreciated nuances of it on a re-read that I missed the first time - layers of meaning, if you will.

The extra scrolling required to get past the second copy is of great benefit to my finger muscles: can't get too much of a workout!

A real boon all around!
 
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