Card Steering - Accuracy, and Legality?

#1
Hi All,

I've been lurking around the forum and reading all the threads I can find in regards to card steering. There are heaps of them that come down to "OMG, what do I do with the card once I know where it is?", but I am more interested in the reliability of cutting to a certain place.

Has anyone here effectively used this technique on a regular basis? How often are you square on the money, and how often does it hit one of the buffers instead? I'm curious what the "ceiling" accuracy for a proficient cutter is likely to be - 80 or 90%? or more likely to be 50% and one either side another 30% or so?

I almost made two threads, but I'm sure we are capable of addressing a spin off question here too - is there anything to indicate either way the legality of such a technique? It would be fairly tough to spot provided you weren't just sitting at a single table for a straight 10 hour session and giving them multiple instances to scrutinize - would they likely just back you off or '86 you at worst, or is this more likely to be in the category where they'd want to see if they can book you for something?

Feedback appreciated.

Jim
 
#4
Spooking isn't legal, and hole-carding is on the fringes of a grey area - why is it so cut and dry that cutting to a certain count of cards, having a partner relay to you what the bottom card was, and then using that card to your advantage is legal? Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly happy for it to be an exploitable edge, I just really want to know where casinos stand on the issue and what they do about it.

Card counting is legal, but that doesn't mean they sit back and act like their hands are tied on the matter.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#6
Spooking isn't legal as it involves someone off table signaling the downcard - i.e. getting information for an area where the game isn't played.
Hole carding isn't grey area - it's perfectly legal as long as you are at the table and not using a device to get the information.
Cutting to a certain card is a learned skill, just like counting. The might bar you for skilled play, they can't charge you for it.

RJT.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#7
Jump-in-Jim said:
Spooking isn't legal, and hole-carding is on the fringes of a grey area
Wrong on both counts. Spooking has never been tested in the courts to my knowledge. Hole carding IS NOT a grey area. It has been tested at least twice in the courts and found to be 100% LEGAL.
 
#8
Yes, I have previously read articles from players regarding hole carding in which they cited case law where hole carding was found to be legal - I was pretty sure that they also referenced cases showing that spooking was illegal, or at least that there had been mixed outcomes of cases thus far.

That aside, what I am concerned with is the casino's stance on the matter - I don't really want them to want to go to court over it, regardless of what the likely legal outcome would be.

Is there any anecdotal evidence of someone getting backed off, 86'd or just given heat over this method?
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#9
I know a few still active groups that have used card steering, but truthfully they've not used these techniques often enough to really get a spectrum of casino reaction. The opportunites to really make money with this style of play are fairly limited.

RJT.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#11
On average less than 0.5 cards out - but they found opportuities that are far from standard, cutting off far less than a deck from the back of the stack.

RJT.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#12
Yes you can definitely get backed off and Griffinized for this technique.

A backrooming would be a good thing since you should get a good lawsuit out of it. Never go to a backroom willingly. Make them drag you, and always have Bob Nersesian's and Bob Loeb's phone numbers in your cell.

If you worry about what casinos think - they hate anyone who wins, whether skilled or not. They will bar people for winning whether skilled or not.
 
#13
Pro21 said:
If you worry about what casinos think - they hate anyone who wins, whether skilled or not.
Like the player at the $15 CSM table that had a dealer bust on a $700 bet. The pit boss was over asking for ID (early-20's player) before you could blink! Anyway, it's always been my understanding that as long as you're playing within the rules of the game and without using any devices or information not freely provided to you by the casino, you're in no way committing a crime. If a dealer hands you a cut card, and you just happened to have noticed where a few cards are in the decks, it surely isn't your legal responsibility to not use this information. I haven't heard about a legal precedent, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't treated the same as earlier hole-carding arguments.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#14
Pro21 said:
Wrong on both counts. Spooking has never been tested in the courts to my knowledge. Hole carding IS NOT a grey area. It has been tested at least twice in the courts and found to be 100% LEGAL.
I'm pretty sure there's case law on the spooking point. I'll try to find it.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#15
moo321 said:
I'm pretty sure there's case law on the spooking point. I'll try to find it.
Please do, I have never heard of any cases regarding this. They would have to be pre 1985 since that is about the time dealers stopped peaking under their tens.

This is one of those things that I file under conventional wisdom. All over the internet you will see posts stating this is illegal but the people who post that don't really know. They repeat it because they saw someone else post it.

Another example of this is when people say that computers are illegal everywhere. Now maybe that is true, but I doubt anyone has actually checked the gaming laws in every state. If I had listened to conventional wisdom we wouldn't have been using computers until New Years Eve 2003 in a state where the law didn't change until Jan 1st, 2004.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#16
Pro21 said:
Please do, I have never heard of any cases regarding this. They would have to be pre 1985 since that is about the time dealers stopped peaking under their tens.

This is one of those things that I file under conventional wisdom. All over the internet you will see posts stating this is illegal but the people who post that don't really know. They repeat it because they saw someone else post it.

Another example of this is when people say that computers are illegal everywhere. Now maybe that is true, but I doubt anyone has actually checked the gaming laws in every state. If I had listened to conventional wisdom we wouldn't have been using computers until New Years Eve 2003 in a state where the law didn't change until Jan 1st, 2004.
I took a look on Westlaw, and absolutely could not find a case on spooking.
 
#17
moo321 said:
I took a look on Westlaw, and absolutely could not find a case on spooking.
It's ambiguous. The dealer is supposed to protect his hand from any person in any place where a player can legally be. There's also a freedom-of-speech issue; I'm sitting in a chair playing a game, a dealer at another table shows me his cards, and I'm allowed to say anything I want about it- First Amendment. There were spooking teams that were using a device to transmit the information to a player and it's obvious what the complaint was there. But to see something and tell another person about it with words or gestures, I don't see how they would have a case against it that would stand up through the appeals process.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#19
Brock Windsor said:
Im pretty certain the specific case is mentioned in "Blackjack and the law" by Nelson and Loeb. I don't have my copy on me.
BW
In regard to spooking Blackjack and the Law mentions 2 cases. Taft Weatherford which was a case involving using a hidden camera to obtain the hole card, and Einbinder Dalben which is the well known case that found hole carding to be legal. They mention no case where someone has even gone to trial for spooking.

Really this is mute since dealers don't peek under their hole card, so spooking really doesn't exist anymore.
 
#20
Pro21 said:
...Really this is mute since dealers don't peek under their hole card, so spooking really doesn't exist anymore.
Not so, there are a few small-venue BJ games that still peek manually, and myriad spooking opportunities exist at games other than blackjack.
 
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