Mt. Airy now has Surrender

21forme

Well-Known Member
#1
Effective today, the PA Gaming Commission made it known to Mt. Airy that they must offer Late Surrender. The memo is making it around today, and should be known to all 3 shifts by tomorrow. If they refuse you, ask them to call the Gaming Agent for verification.
 
#2
21forme said:
Effective today, the PA Gaming Commission made it known to Mt. Airy that they must offer Late Surrender. The memo is making it around today, and should be known to all 3 shifts by tomorrow. If they refuse you, ask them to call the Gaming Agent for verification.
That's great news! Thanks for letting us know. I just hope they keep other aspects of their game as it was.

May I ask where you get your information?
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#4
SBCat said:
That's great news! Thanks for letting us know. I just hope they keep other aspects of their game as it was.

May I ask where you get your information?
The info came from a friend of mine who was there this evening.
 
#5
21forme said:
The info came from a friend of mine who was there this evening.
Thanks.

I wish I could see the looks on the faces of the pit boss and the shift manager who insisted to me that (1) offering surrender is at the casino's discretion and (2) Mt Airy was not offering it because it is "not in the players' interest."

Frankly, though, it's amazing how few people take advantage of this option when it is offered. I've sat at so many tables where everyone looked at me like I was nuts to surrender -- even on a 16 vs dealer's 10.
 
#7
I think they probably owe me several hundred $$, but there is no way I can prove it.

That's OK. I'm getting tremendous satisfaction from the fact that, presumably, they had to cave into the pressure we created by registering complaints with the gaming commission. (I also had a decent profit from my visit there last week in spite of their non-compliance.)
 
#8
SBCat said:
Thanks.

I wish I could see the looks on the faces of the pit boss and the shift manager who insisted to me that (1) offering surrender is at the casino's discretion and (2) Mt Airy was not offering it because it is "not in the players' interest."

Frankly, though, it's amazing how few people take advantage of this option when it is offered. I've sat at so many tables where everyone looked at me like I was nuts to surrender -- even on a 16 vs dealer's 10.
Sadly, that is generally true
 

Mewtwo

Well-Known Member
#9
SBCat said:
I think they probably owe me several hundred $$, but there is no way I can prove it.

That's OK. I'm getting tremendous satisfaction from the fact that, presumably, they had to cave into the pressure we created by registering complaints with the gaming commission. (I also had a decent profit from my visit there last week in spite of their non-compliance.)
I would love to see some kind of punitive action taken as a whole then, if single players can't be reimbursed - perhaps a solid month of forcing them to pay 3:1 on BJs.
 
#10
Mewtwo said:
I would love to see some kind of punitive action taken as a whole then, if single players can't be reimbursed - perhaps a solid month of forcing them to pay 3:1 on BJs.
I'd love to see pigs fly too. If anything, perhaps the Commission may have fined them -- it won't benefit us, but hopefully it will make the casino think twice about making "loose" interpretations of the mandatory rules.

But seriously, I think we should be content that we got them to correct their transgression within two weeks after opening. To me that says the Gaming Commission is doing its job. In general, the mandatory rules in PA are pretty good (Late surrender, DOA, DAS, S17), and I just hope it stays that way. With forums like this, a proactive set of watchdogs (us), and a gaming commission that is enforcing the rules, I am optimistic (though some might say naive).
 
#11
21forme said:
Effective today, the PA Gaming Commission made it known to Mt. Airy that they must offer Late Surrender. The memo is making it around today, and should be known to all 3 shifts by tomorrow. If they refuse you, ask them to call the Gaming Agent for verification.
Thanks for the info forme. If the players on the Shuffle Master electronic BJ game are any indication of how players will use surrender, the addition of this rule should benefit Mt. Airy considerably.
 

ArcticInferno

Well-Known Member
#13
I hope they won't "retaliate" by changing to 8 decks.
They may feel the need to recoup the losses somehow.
I would personally prefer 6 decks without surrender over 8 decks with surrender.

Currently, Mount Airy has the best game.
I hope you guys don’t burn it down too quickly. LOL.
 
#14
So is Mt. Airy the only new PA casino with 6 deck action? I booked a cheapo room near Sands in Bethlehem hoping they were all 6 decks. Maybe their high limit *25+* tables have 6 decks?

Also, is Mt. Airy using live shoes or ASM/CSM machines?

Thanks!
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
#15
SBCat said:
Thanks.

I wish I could see the looks on the faces of the pit boss and the shift manager who insisted to me that (1) offering surrender is at the casino's discretion and (2) Mt Airy was not offering it because it is "not in the players' interest."
.
He's right, generally surrender is not in the players interest because they play it so stupidly. That's what makes it a win-win for the casino and sharper players. The fact that casinos are willing to cut their own nose off by denying bad players a chance to reduce their variance just because some skillful players are given another option they can use in their own favor is typical of the paranoia.
 

ArcticInferno

Well-Known Member
#17
Thanks for your reply, but your comment was neither constructive nor informative.
But more importantly, not accurate.
There’s more to advantage play than mere numbers and rules, and you seem
to have a lot to learn.
I do play 8 decks regularly. However, I prefer the higher frequency of count
fluctuations in 6 decks.
Also, if the 8 deck nose-dives into the abyss, you have to wait a very long
time before the shoe ends, and therein lies the crux of my argument.
The time issue! In a day-trip, I usually arrive at the casino (or the area)
around 10:00 AM or 10:30 AM. I eat lunch around 1:00 PM or so.
I continue on until a dinner break around 7:00 PM or so. I try to drive out
around 9:00 PM. Over-night trips are different, obviously. When you
consider the time issue, the 6 decks gives a much higher frequency of
advantage situations than 8 decks. I would give up the small advantage of
surrender to save time. That’s where you missed my point. I traded the
surrender advantage for time because my time is very important to me.
Atlantic City has a handful of casinos that offer 6-decks, but I can’t play
there all the time or I’ll burn them out, so I reluctantly play 8-decks to
spread myself thin. I frequent Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun as well.
I don’t want to contradict myself, and I’m not, but I prefer Foxwoods over
Mohegan Sun, and the reason is because of the penetration, which is a
whole another topic all together.
When you play 6 or 8 decks, most of your winnings come from bet variations
when high-value cards pour out of the shoe and paint the table.
The contribution of rules, although not insignificant, can be overcome by
other factors. If you can put a dollar value to time, then I would much
prefer 6 decks that give you greater frequency of advantage situations.
Here’re some numbers for you to consider.
6 deck: -0.54 %
8 deck: -0.57 %
Surrender: 0.08 %
-0.57 % + 0.08 % = -0.49 %
0.49 % - 0.54 % = -0.05 %
When you consider the fact that each true count raises/lowers the
advantage by approximately 0.5%, the 0.05 % becomes negligible when
the time is taken into the equation.
 
Last edited:
#18
ArcticInferno said:
Thanks for your reply, but your comment was neither constructive nor informative.
But more importantly, not accurate.
There’s more to advantage play than mere numbers and rules, and you seem
to have a lot to learn.
I do play 8 decks regularly. However, I prefer the higher frequency of count
fluctuations in 6 decks.
Also, if the 8 deck nose-dives into the abyss, you have to wait a very long
time before the shoe ends, and therein lies the crux of my argument.
The time issue! In a day-trip, I usually arrive at the casino (or the area)
around 10:00 AM or 10:30 AM. I eat lunch around 1:00 PM or so.
I continue on until a dinner break around 7:00 PM or so. I try to drive out
around 9:00 PM. Over-night trips are different, obviously. When you
consider the time issue, the 6 decks gives a much higher frequency of
advantage situations than 8 decks. I would give up the small advantage of
surrender to save time. That’s where you missed my point. I traded the
surrender advantage for time because my time is very important to me.
Atlantic City has a handful of casinos that offer 6-decks, but I can’t play
there all the time or I’ll burn them out, so I reluctantly play 8-decks to
spread myself thin. I frequent Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun as well.
I don’t want to contradict myself, and I’m not, but I prefer Foxwoods over
Mohegan Sun, and the reason is because of the penetration, which is a
whole another topic all together.
When you play 6 or 8 decks, most of your winnings come from bet variations
when high-value cards pour out of the shoe and paint the table.
The contribution of rules, although not insignificant, can be overcome by
other factors. If you can put a dollar value to time, then I would much
prefer 6 decks that give you greater frequency of advantage situations.
Here’re some numbers for you to consider.
6 deck: -0.54 %
8 deck: -0.57 %
Surrender: 0.08 %
-0.57 % + 0.08 % = -0.49 %
0.49 % - 0.54 % = -0.05 %
When you consider the fact that each true count raises/lowers the
advantage by approximately 0.5%, the 0.05 % becomes negligible when
the time is taken into the equation.
Your numbers are not applicable. While it's true surrender only gives a basic strategy player 0.08%, you are not a basic strategy player and the rule is worth far more in high counts. It's not worth much of anything in low counts, and if you follow the BS surrender rules you actually lose money with it in low counts, but as counters we're usually gone from the table at that point.

While it may seem you are getting a lot more good counts in 6D vs. 8D, it's not worth that much, because as good counts are more frequent in 6D they last longer in 8D. The difference is mostly psychological, and due to the more frequent shuffles in 6D you will actually be getting more hands per hour at 8D. And for a backcounter/Wong-outer the less frequent but longer good counts of 8D are advantageous as there is less jumping in and out of shoes, which is time-consuming and will also serve to limit the number of good hands you see in a real-world casino.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#19

Not only is Automatic Monkey fully correct, but he deserves kudos for expressing the salient points so eloquently.

A.M. is one of a small coterie of regular posters who can be relied upon to know of what he speaks.
 

zoomie

Well-Known Member
#20
Automatic Monkey said:
Your numbers are not applicable. While it's true surrender only gives a basic strategy player 0.08%, you are not a basic strategy player and the rule is worth far more in high counts.
Here, here. Excellent point. :)
 
Top