Question about Spanish 21 basic strategy

shinyam

Well-Known Member
#1
If you double a 9 against a 2, and end up with a 3, are you supposed to surrender? I don't see anything in the BS chart. However, on hitorsplit.com, the trainer says to do so.
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
#2
shinyam said:
If you double a 9 against a 2, and end up with a 3, are you supposed to surrender? I don't see anything in the BS chart. However, on hitorsplit.com, the trainer says to do so.
According to Spanish 21 Basic Strategy, you should not double 9 against 2.

However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17, it would not be correct to surrender, because you will win (ie the dealer will bust) more than 25% of the time, which is the cut-off for surrendering.
 

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#3
Yes, if you are using B.S. you should not double a 9v2. In fact, the count would have to be extraordinarily high for you to double your 9v2. You'd probably have your max bet out by the time you double your 9v3, and the probability of getting a count in which it's correct to double a 9v2 in Sp21 is very very rare that it's not worth even learning. Way far "down the list" of the most important indices to learn for Sp21.

And also, the rule for double down rescue is:

1. If you double down, and end up with a 12 - 16, you "Surrender", or "Double Down Rescue" if the dealer is showing an 8 - A.
2. Or, if you double down and get a 17, you Rescue if the dealer has an Ace.

Other than that, don't double down rescue. People also usually don't make indices for rescue, even though it's technically possible to do so.

Source: http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21

Edit: duanedibley, you said, "However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17 it would not be correct to surrender" but in actuality, if you ended up with less than 17 and the dealer is showing an 8-A you do surrender (rescue).
 

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#4
Hmmm interesting thought I just had as I answered the question.

Let's say you know the index for a 9v8 double (however high it is), and you double and get a 2 for a total of 11. Logically it seems that you'd rescue that as well, unless redoubling is allowed.
 

shinyam

Well-Known Member
#5
duanedibley said:
According to Spanish 21 Basic Strategy, you should not double 9 against 2.

However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17, it would not be correct to surrender, because you will win (ie the dealer will bust) more than 25% of the time, which is the cut-off for surrendering.
Thanks. Bad example. Let's say it's ten agains a six that you double, and you get a 3 for 13.

It's still not correct to rescue your bet, right? The trainer is wrong then...
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
#6
assume_R said:
Edit: duanedibley, you said, "However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17 it would not be correct to surrender" but in actuality, if you ended up with less than 17 and the dealer is showing an 8-A you do surrender (rescue).
I was talking specifically about the case of 9 vs 2, which is why I said the dealer will bust >25% of the time, which is naturally not the case vs 8-A.
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
#7
shinyam said:
Thanks. Bad example. Let's say it's ten agains a six that you double, and you get a 3 for 13.

It's still not correct to rescue your bet, right? The trainer is wrong then...
You are right, it is not correct to rescue after doubling down in this example (or any time that the dealer is showing 2 through 7).

There do seem to be a few errors with the hitorsplit trainer, so maybe you have found another one of them.
 

shinyam

Well-Known Member
#8
Another question: On the wizardofodds, the strategy chart says to stay on soft 19-21 vs 10, but to HIT when there are six or more cards.

Are you allowed to hit 21? Why would you? And hitting 20 vs 10 also seems crazy.
 

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#9
shinyam said:
Another question: On the wizardofodds, the strategy chart says to stay on soft 19-21 vs 10, but to HIT when there are six or more cards.

Are you allowed to hit 21? Why would you? And hitting 20 vs 10 also seems crazy.
Regarding being allowed to hit 21, I wouldn't think you'd be allowed, being as there is an "Automatic Win" on a 21. Also never hit a 21, that's just asking for heat :flame::laugh:

However, the reason you should hit is because of the bonus for a 7-card 21. If you already have 6 cards and you have a soft 20 (so that you can't possibly bust), you have a 1 in 13 chance of getting that 3-1 payout for the 7+ card 21 on your next card, and if you don't get it, you can still try again for your 8th card (since you can't bust on the 7th).
 

shinyam

Well-Known Member
#10
Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

I find learning basic strategy extremely easy, with one exception: the numbers: that is, when to hit based on the number of cards you have.

If I fail to learn these numbers, is the game still beatable with card counting? How much do I lose for not learning these? They are very random, and not easy to memorize.
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
#11
shinyam said:
Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

I find learning basic strategy extremely easy, with one exception: the numbers: that is, when to hit based on the number of cards you have.

If I fail to learn these numbers, is the game still beatable with card counting? How much do I lose for not learning these? They are very random, and not easy to memorize.
Yes the game is still beatable with counting if you skip the multi-card basic strategy plays. I don't remember off the top of my head how much you lose.

However, I would still suggest you learn these plays, for the sake of discipline more than anything else. They really only take 3 days of flash card drills to get down cold, and if you don't want to do this, you will likely be tempted to rush a lot of other things too before you step into the casino.
 

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#12
shinyam said:
Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

I find learning basic strategy extremely easy, with one exception: the numbers: that is, when to hit based on the number of cards you have.

If I fail to learn these numbers, is the game still beatable with card counting? How much do I lose for not learning these? They are very random, and not easy to memorize.
The numbers help you get some more multi-card-21 bonuses. While they may seem random they actually do make sense. For example, if you have a 17 and the dealer shows a 9, you're probably going to lose. But normally it's not worth the risk of hitting. Yet if you have a chance for that 3-1 bonus, it becomes worth it to risk hitting.

Anyway, to answer your question explicitly, yes the game is beatable without knowing all the numbers and just counting. Sims will easily show this. You just want to give yourself as much of an edge as possible!
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
#14
One alternative to learning the composition-dependent basic strategy plays is to learn "relative indices" for potential bonus hands. These can be found in table 6.16 of Kat's book.

The most important ones are:

H/S w/ potential 678: +2

H/S 4-card stiff: +2

H/D 3-card hand: +1

So let's say our normal H/S index for 14 vs 4 is -3. If we are looking at 86o then we stand at >= -1.

Similarly, if our normal H/D index for 10 vs 8 is -3, and we have a 3-card 10, we double this at >= -2.

I don't think there is much value in adding the suited/spaded, 5/6 card stiff, or 4+ card double plays, as these really never come up.

I hope that helps!
 
#16
moo321 said:
The big ones to know are hit 3 card 10 v. 8 and 3 card 11 v. 9-A.
Except in positive counts. Those are among the few plays where it pays to use indices for multi-card hands, they come up so often. And in a negative count you don't double them at all.

Another nice one is you don't hit 3-card hard 17 in a positive count.
 

nuvi

Active Member
#17
shinyam said:
If you double a 9 against a 2, and end up with a 3, are you supposed to surrender? I don't see anything in the BS chart. However, on hitorsplit.com, the trainer says to do so.
You are not supposed to surrender. The correct play is to stand.

The strategy chart on hitorsplit.com is correct, but the trainer has a bug. The bug has been identified, and I am in the process of fixing it.

I apologize for the confusion.
 

nuvi

Active Member
#18
Bugs are now Fixed

The following bugs in the Spanish 21 trainer have now been fixed:

1) Under Standard S17, 8 decks: After doubling down on 11 against a dealer's Ace, I received a 6 and surrendered with 17. The game told me that I was incorrect. It said that I should have HIT. But hitting was not an option because I had already doubled down. The correct play was indeed to Surrender because hitting was not possible.

2) Under Standard S17, 8 decks: I had a 7 of spades and an 8 of spades, and the dealer had a 4. I hit, but the game incorrectly told me that the correct play was to stand.

3) In the three versions of Spanish 21 (Standard H17, Redouble H17, Standard S17), the dealer receives a "hole card" (a card facing down). The dealer should "peek" at that card, and the game should immediately end if the dealer has a blackjack (an Ace and a face card). Currently, the dealer does not "peek". In the Pontoon versions of the game, there is no hole card, and the game seems to work correctly.

4) In the Spanish 21 game, if a player doubles down and receives a card that makes the total less than 17 and subsequently STANDS, the game incorrectly tells the player that he should have SURRENDERED.
 
#19
assume_R said:
......

Anyway, to answer your question explicitly, yes the game is beatable without knowing all the numbers and just counting. Sims will easily show this. You just want to give yourself as much of an edge as possible!
Where can I find Sims for Spanish 21?
 
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