playing for comps vs not

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#1
For the last year or so I have played mostly anonymously as a refusal, only occasionally playing rated to earn some food comps. Lately I have been weighing the idea of playing more for comps and there have been some good discussion on the subject, including the current "easy way to get comped @harrah's" thread and even "Ap's are just advanced ploppies" touches on my thoughts.

I know some AP's like Kim Lee and Shadroch consider comps a major part of their advantage play compensation, while others just want to eliminate or reduce expenses.

Here is kind of where I am at in my thought process at the moment.

Lets say I am willing to devote 2 hours to comp play.

senario #1 I play blackjack rated for 3 hours at a reduced spread earning an expected win of 1 unit per hour or $75, but would receive comps to cover room and food.

Senario #2 I play other, negative expected games such as video poker for a couple hours showing an expected loss, but covering room and food.

Senario #3 I play 2 hours of unrated BJ at my normal spread earning an expected win of close to 3 units per hour or $225 dollars for 3 hours. No Comps. I pay for my room and food.

From a strictly financial point, number 3 seems to make the most sense for me at my level of play. I don't need a room in Vegas, but other locations such as AC or Reno that I may travel to rooms are very inexpensive at the moment with supply far outweighing demand. The extra $150 generated from #3 easily covers cost, and then some.

Of course the second consideration is cover. Having some negative EV games on record and even lower spread BJ would provide some cover. Of course the trade off to this is that the casino has information about you. Playing unrated they have none.

At this point in my thought process the decision seems pretty simple to me to continue to play unrated. Is there any angle that I am missing or perhaps not considering? Again, I am speaking only of my situation. For those that travel with a spouse and want to turn their trips into a working vacation and get nice suites and top restuarants, the equation would be different. For those playing at a significantly higher level than myself that can earn airfare reinbursement as well, again that would be a different consideration. Appreciate any thoughts, especially from those much more educated about the comp systems than myself.
 

Machinist

Well-Known Member
#2
Generally speaking DONT DO IT!!!!

This can be a tough question... I'm of the opinion to never play rated at "Your Game"
The less they know the better... There are plenty of ways of getting free or reduced rates on rooms.
I have played both ways over the years rated and unrated. It is all very dependent on the casino. Harrah's is easy....I would say use them , because of their network or casinos.
Alot of my stuff requires the use of a card to get the most positive EV. But over the years there have been times i should not have played with a card!!!.. Live and learn!!!
In your position i would fly under the radar. With the exception being Harrahs. If you have no experience with comps from machines then start with harrahs.
PM me..i'll give you a few more ideas..

Machinist
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
#3
Why not play your normal spread and play rated to get comps at the same time?

I know that's a smartass response. But I think there's an interesting question to be discussed here. Does the advantage of being backed off anonymously vs using a players card outweigh the lost comps? I'm sure it does in certain locations/situations (for example, if you're in a town that's going to pass flyers out to nearby casinos if you're made). In most situations though, I don't get why being backed off after giving ID is so terrible. You forfeit future comp potential ... but so what?

I'm also a strong believer that playing as refusal when you're splashing stacks of green or black on the felt occasionally is going to bring more scrutiny and increase your chance of being backed off.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#4
Unrated!

As a pro, the "cost" of getting made is severe compared to the weekend warriors around here. I can't imagine that saving a few bucks on food or rooms is worth the risk, though if you can get flight offers and merchandise I can see it being tempting.

So I'd say play unrated if you're counting, and *possibly* rated if you're doing more advanced plays that are unlikely to create heat. Perhaps you can find a way to play rated under an assumed name.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#5
Assuming what you've been posting about your experiances is true, and I have no reason to think they aren't, I'd continue doing just what you've been doing. Seems like you are doing quite well, and can afford to spring for your own rooms when needed.
 
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kewljason

Well-Known Member
#7
sabre said:
In most situations though, I don't get why being backed off after giving ID is so terrible. You forfeit future comp potential ... but so what?

I'm also a strong believer that playing as refusal when you're splashing stacks of green or black on the felt occasionally is going to bring more scrutiny and increase your chance of being backed off.
I have not experienced additional scrutiny by playing unrated, probably because I play very short sessions. Usually am gone within 20 minutes to a half hour, often less.

For me, being backed off while giving Id could be bad, because I play very frequently at a number of store in a large chain in Vegas. (I am sure we all know of whom I speak) I wouldn't want a mistake or incident at one location to jepordize future play at all. :eek:

shadroch said:
Assuming what you've been posting about your experiances is true, and I have no reason to think they aren't, I'd continue doing just what you've been doing. Seems like you are doing quite well, and can afford tobspring for your own rooms when needed.
Yes, shad I can afford to spring for rooms as I am sure you can as well. (I seem to remember you mentioning being a business owner) But we still want to get all we can from from them, right? :eek:

Another aspect that I though of after I posted was that (although these things have never happened to me), I have heard stories of players being thrown out of rooms in the middle of the night. (Probably less if at all these days though) I would think that would be more difficult with a paying customer vs a comped customer. Also have heard stories of comps being yanked mid-trip and charged full, highest rate at checkout. This senario couldn't happen as well with a paying customer.
 

KimLee

Well-Known Member
#8
kewljason said:
senario #1 I play blackjack rated for 3 hours at a reduced spread

Senario #2 negative expected games such as video poker

Senario #3 normal spread earning ... $225 dollars for 3 hours.
When given a choice take both.

If you play short sessions then you need to move a lot. Then it takes you 1.5 hours to play blackjack for 1 hour. But video poker has no heat or incremental travel time. So an hour of video poker only costs you 40 minutes of blackjack playing time. A multiline machine can easily generate hotel rooms in less than an hour. It probably triggers mail for months.

Also, if you are dumping at blackjack then you can always whip out your players card and extend the session for comps.
 
#10
Time & Bank Cost

KimLee said:
When given a choice take both.

If you play short sessions then you need to move a lot. Then it takes you 1.5 hours to play blackjack for 1 hour. But video poker has no heat or incremental travel time. So an hour of video poker only costs you 40 minutes of blackjack playing time. A multiline machine can easily generate hotel rooms in less than an hour. It probably triggers mail for months.

Also, if you are dumping at blackjack then you can always whip out your players card and extend the session for comps.
The level of play needed in VP to get RFB will most likely be rough due to variance on your bank. If playing for 40 min. the $ variance will be high, if playing smaller denominatin machines then you lose a lot of time. Of course, it is dependent on bank, games played etc.

:joker::whip:
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
#11
kewljason said:
For me, being backed off while giving Id could be bad, because I play very frequently at a number of store in a large chain in Vegas. (I am sure we all know of whom I speak) I wouldn't want a mistake or incident at one location to jepordize future play at all. :eek:
But why is being backed off with them having a copy of your ID worse than being backed off without them having a copy of your ID? In both cases, I would assume that you're going to play unrated at sister properties and lay low for awhile at the backoff property before returning to play there unrated as well.
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
#12
Lonesome Gambler said:
The cost of future profits to be made at a game that you are no longer welcome to play.
Why are you less welcome to play after being backed off having shown ID vs being backed off having not shown ID?
 

Sharky

Well-Known Member
#13
sabre said:
Why not play your normal spread and play rated to get comps at the same time?

...In most situations though, I don't get why being backed off after giving ID is so terrible...

what's so terrible is that they now have you marked in the system as counter and most likely a nice picture of you too

i never play rated because i play high stakes (minimizes the value of a $100 room/meal) and spread very, very aggressively...so aggressive it screams out this guy is up to something...before they know it...i am outta there

"you been hit by, you been struck by, a smooth criminal" :whip: "do do, do da dute dute, do da dute dute"
~MJ
 
#15
If you're talking about large venues like AC and LV, you only need comps in one store. How many buffets can you eat, and how many rooms do you need?

My suggestion: in each city, select one store on the following criteria:

  1. Amenities you genuinely enjoy, nice rooms, food you like.
  2. Easier than average comps, playable VP, low HE BJ, decent mail offers.
  3. Limited opportunities for hardcore AP at it or related properties.

And that's where you go do what you have to do to get your comps. Make friends with the hosts & pit. Don't throw money away there of course, but an hour flat-bet in a HL DD game is going to be break-even or a slight advantage thanks to your index plays (and a 1-2 spread won't look too threatening), will go a long way towards your room & board, and will allow you to not have to worry about what other casinos think of you.

Just a suggestion, it might be a better deal for you to just pay cash for a roach motel and buy a cheap meal, if your game calls for anonymity. An AP can live like that. But it is nice to have some luxury accommodations available for the times you're not alone.
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
#16
Sharky said:
what's so terrible is that they now have you marked in the system as counter and most likely a nice picture of you too
Why do you care that you're marked in their system as a counter? Just go back to playing anonymously. At least you got X value in comps during your rated play. What's the negative to them having your name and address in the system if you never plan on identifying yourself again after the backoff.

Yes, they could have a nice photo of you now. How terrible is that though? Unless you're wrapped in bandages, it's pretty trivial for the casino to get a reasonable picture of you through the eye in the sky that can be used to assist in future identification.

Also, not every casino scans your photo ID. And those that do, you can easily refuse when signing up for a players card. Simply don't let your ID leave your hand when signing up. Inform the players club person that you don't allow your ID to be scanned by ANYONE. They will still give you a card, and will only have your name/address/drivers license # on file.

Do you think the casino is going to have an easier time backing you off on future anonymous play given that information?


I'm playing a bit of devils advocate here. I do understand that there are times where you should be playing anonymously. I would sure as hell never give a players card on a trap game that I'm sure kewljason abuses regularly with super short sessions. Nor would I give my card on a non-trap game at a property where I recently played their trap game.
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
#17
Automatic Monkey said:
If you're talking about large venues like AC and LV, you only need comps in one store. How many buffets can you eat, and how many rooms do you need?
Meh, start throwing in free play though ....

If I can get 3-4 hrs of EV through promo chips during a week long stay where I plan on playing 30 hrs, I've just added a good 10% to my earn ... variance free to boot.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#18
Automatic Monkey said:
If you're talking about large venues like AC and LV, you only need comps in one store. How many buffets can you eat, and how many rooms do you need?

My suggestion: in each city, select one store on the following criteria:

  1. Amenities you genuinely enjoy, nice rooms, food you like.
  2. Easier than average comps, playable VP, low HE BJ, decent mail offers.
  3. Limited opportunities for hardcore AP at it or related properties.

And that's where you go do what you have to do to get your comps. Make friends with the hosts & pit. Don't throw money away there of course, but an hour flat-bet in a HL DD game is going to be break-even or a slight advantage thanks to your index plays (and a 1-2 spread won't look too threatening), will go a long way towards your room & board, and will allow you to not have to worry about what other casinos think of you.

Just a suggestion, it might be a better deal for you to just pay cash for a roach motel and buy a cheap meal, if your game calls for anonymity. An AP can live like that. But it is nice to have some luxury accommodations available for the times you're not alone.
I am definately not talking about down grading to a roach motel, automonk. :laugh: What next, sleeping in your car? pitching a tent on the beach? or bunking with the under the boardwalk crowd or the drain/sewer people in vegas? :laugh: I was more thinking that standard rooms at casino hotels like Bally's and showboat only go for $39 and $49 on weekenights (september-may) My thoughts were playing a reduced spread and subsequently reduced profits and/or playing some neg EV games would actually cost more than playing full spread anonymously and paying cash.

Your thoughts about picking one place that you play rated a little for comps is actually what I have done in AC for a number of years. I have one store on the boardwalk that has mediocre BJ rules that I play rated and stay at, but play unrated in the marina district where most of my play takes place. I guess maybe I should stick to that plan. My comps at the boardwalk place have recently dried up as I guess I no longer play frequently enough to warrent summertime freebies there. I'm sure it won't take to much to get back on board tho.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#19
True life example- Played just over two hours of 100 play Jacks or Better at The Four Queens. Was comped a free dinner at their coffee shop. This was about a year ago, and since then I get offers every quarter. They vary but it's generally three free nights and $50 in free slot play.Sometimes they throw in $40 or so of free food. You can use the rooms over and over, but you need a week between stays and the free slot play is per month.
Suppose you lined up similar offers from three more casinos, and hit Vegas six times a year at the end of a month. You arrive January 28th, get your three free nights and $50 in FSP. Over the next few days you collect your $50 in FSP from the other three casinos. Now its Feb 1st and you repeat the drill. You get six free nights, and $400 in free Slot Play. Use the FSP on a multi-line Jacks or Better and you should walk away with about $350 in cash, plus a meal or two to boot,
You've gotten free rooms, covered most, if not all, of your airfare, gotten a meal or three and have 22 hours a day to play BJ or do whatever else you care to do.
 
#20
sabre said:
Meh, start throwing in free play though ....

If I can get 3-4 hrs of EV through promo chips during a week long stay where I plan on playing 30 hrs, I've just added a good 10% to my earn ... variance free to boot.
Yes, that's something different. As is the cash-equivalent comp we're very familiar with. Most of these guys seem interested in RFB though.
 
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