dice control

xxrenegadexx

Well-Known Member
#1
I'm very skeptical that it is possible to control the outcome of the dice in craps. Does anyone here know if it's on the level? As I understand the concept is to lower the probability of rolling a seven thus flipping the odds of the pass line bet. If anyone has any legit information or links to information on this please share. I'm thinking it would be a great form of cover and a needed break from the strain of card counting. Thanks in advance.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#4
zengrifter said:
No, no proof like in counting.
That hits the nail on the head.

Hate to sound like a broken record player on this one, but dice control is a very facinating topic out there. There are supposedly some gurus that have made quite a bit of money out there on it, but I wonder if it is more from seminars than from the casinos.

Renegade--you have the right idea about why someone would want to control the dice, but in theory a dice controller would want to use his or her skill to make money. Whether that is on the pass line or by placing numbers, you would want to find a way.

To sum up the premise of DC, there are different "sets" of the dice that, if kept on a particular axis, have inherent probabilities of outcomes that is different that the complete set of random outcomes of the dice. As you know, the 7 is the most probable outcome of the dice (6 out of 36), 6 & 8 next, 5 & 9 after that, etc. If kept on axis, different sets have different probabilities for the numbers...some don't even exist on some sets, and the probability of the 7 can be reduced IF KEPT ON THAT AXIS. In fact, there are sets (maybe just one, can't remember off the top of my head) that actually have a greater than 1:6 probability of the 7.

So, it's all in how you set the dice up and how you bet that DC works. Of course, you can't forget about that little detail of KEEPING THE DICE ON AXIS. Some claim that all you need to do is keep the dice on axis once in so many tries to give you an advantage. It makes sense, but what mystifies me is that nobody that I have seen ever calculates the negative effect of when the dice go onto an axis that is not favorable to how you are betting.

Anyways, I am rambling, but that is a quick and dirty from my perspective. And I'm sure there's a lot more that we could get in to!
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#7
21forme said:
SOnny,
Do you have a photographic memory, and amazing index of all these threads, or just use the Search feature a lot?
I have a very, very, very, very, very boring desk job. :grin:

-Sonny-
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#8
I am a huge believer in Dice Control. I have started practicing after reading "Get the Edge at Craps: Control the Dice!" I think its called by Sharpshooter.

Even though I understand skeptics out there, I really do think with enough practice and determination you can physically reduce the amount of sevens you can throw.

And mathematically, if it is possible, you can get a much higher % edge over the house than you can counting cards.

Also, as others said there is no real proof because it can't really be proven, except for people throwing thousands of throws and recording how many sevens they threw (thats how you know if your actually influencing the dice or just getting lucky)
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#9
Dyepaintball12 said:
I am a huge believer in Dice Control.
That's good...maybe you can help answer this question then:

If a DC calculates that he will influence the dice to stay on a favorable axis X number of times per 100 rolls, does that make up for the Y out of 100 rolls where the roll ends up on an axis that favors the 7?

Besides the bounce, diamond-foam walls, and other craps table hazards; this was the thing that killed my spirit on DC years ago. None of those big DC guns have ever answered the question I've posed...I really want to know...I really want to believe! You know, DC is one of those things that doesn't hurt to try--it's not going to leave you with a horrendous disadvantage if you can't pull it off. My beef is with these characters charging $500+ for seminars to teach it, and charging fees to join message boards like this one.
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#10
Well for the first part of your question, I am not sure but I will look in my book again because he spends alot of time on these kinds of questions. He talks all about the different axis's and all about the dice turning over different ways and such. He also discusses how to adjust the dice set to fix sevening out problems for each noticable way the dice is rotating.

And as for the diamond wall, it basically can be treated just as a regular wall if the dice hit it soft enough and it does not randomize as much as it is made too.

And as for chips as hazards, you just need to not hit them and alot of times if players see that you really are good and need a clear area they may move their bets to make room for you. However, playing at off times where tables are empty or less full helps alot.

And as for the bounce, after much practice you should be able to get the dice to release out of your hand together, get them to travel through the air together basically side by side and have them bounce together and keep the same number-set that you originally placed.
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#11
Oh and as for the seminars, yeah there are lots of those and I am not sure about whether or not I want to take one. I mean you get 1 on 1 instruction so you may be able to pick up DC faster and more accurately, but it is quite an expensive price to pay when you could just read a book and practice on your own.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#12
Dyepaintball12 said:
Well for the first part of your question, I am not sure but I will look in my book again because he spends alot of time on these kinds of questions. He talks all about the different axis's and all about the dice turning over different ways and such. He also discusses how to adjust the dice set to fix sevening out problems for each noticable way the dice is rotating.
That really is my only question, and I'm interested to hear if you find anything out about probabilities of axes cancelling each other out to create...randomness! :cool: To tone it down on the sarcasm, I do understand what you are saying about "fixing" your shooting issues at the table...it's kinda like adjusting your golf game on the course. You don't really want to change your swing, but if you're slicing quite a bit, you aim more to the left till you get back to the range.

I do urge you not to dump your money on a seminar like that. If you really are enthused about honing your practical skills in DC, you can build a home "rig" out of materials...some of which (like the diamond foam) you may have to order online or from a supply store. Some friends and I did it years back and it really had the feel of a craps table without actually having one. We couldn't have a real dice game, but we could practice throwing.

It's just a shame that many of the online resources that were free years ago are now part of membership-only pages, pay-only content, etc. I even ran across a link to an article from the "Mad Professor", but even now his articles are part of a book that you have to pay for now. They used to be online for your reading pleasure...often disputed as fiction, but extravagant nonetheless! Anyways, you get my drift...DC is now an industry (nothing wrong with capitalism), but the value of much of its content is, to me, overvalued. It's definintely up to you, but I think you could definitely learn & do much of it yourself.

good luck
 

xxrenegadexx

Well-Known Member
#13
MAN!!! so i guess it is a mixed responce from you guys on this topic. I'm very appreciative of the info sent me especially that from zengriffer. Although I found something on the internet saying that if you can influence the dice to roll one seven less than usual out of 43 times then the pass line becomes an even bet. Also I've read that Stanford Wong has become a pro at this. So I still have mixed emotions whether this is possible or not. Maybe its like one of you guys said- its like santaclause- but then again maybe not?
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#14
As Sanford Wong is becoming quite well known for his dice control,I'm curious why he hasn't been banned from shooting.Surely,the casinos have studied his play and must know how successful he is or isn't.
If and when casinos start banning shooters,then we'll know. Or perhaps not.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#15
xxrenegadexx said:
MAN!!! so i guess it is a mixed responce from you guys on this topic. I'm very appreciative of the info sent me especially that from zengriffer. Although I found something on the internet saying that if you can influence the dice to roll one seven less than usual out of 43 times then the pass line becomes an even bet. Also I've read that Stanford Wong has become a pro at this. So I still have mixed emotions whether this is possible or not. Maybe its like one of you guys said- its like santaclause- but then again maybe not?
If you have mixed emotions, but are still very curious, do it yourself. It sounds like you know the principles, know the sets and their strengths...now just practice your shooting at home. See if it's for you, try it at the casino, but I'd steer clear of those seminars and such that are advantage plays for the "experts".

good luck
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#16
shadroch said:
As Sanford Wong is becoming quite well known for his dice control,I'm curious why he hasn't been banned from shooting.Surely,the casinos have studied his play and must know how successful he is or isn't.
If and when casinos start banning shooters,then we'll know. Or perhaps not.
That's always been a question of mine as well. Apparently, casinos have taken repeated steps to ban card counters and make BJ conditions more difficult for counters because it is a legitimate threat.

To play devil's advocate though, maybe the casinos think that DC is a difficult skill that will only bring more attraction to the game without real threats by "amateurs". And maybe that's why I'm on here casting doubt on the issue too :p
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#17
I also have thought about Casinos banning DCs. I have heard that many stickmen/boxmen will not let you set the dice if you continually take a long time to do so and will try ways to get you distracted so your roll gets thrown off, but I have never heard of anyone getting banned from Craps.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#18
Two Points

Personally, I don't know whether you can really learn to influence the dice or not. But if you can, then two obstacles remain. You can bet only when you (or another confirmed DC) are the shooter, and they can always revise the game to make you shoot out of a leather dice cup.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#19
Renzey said:
Personally, I don't know whether you can really learn to influence the dice or not. But if you can, then two obstacles remain. You can bet only when you (or another confirmed DC) are the shooter, and they can always revise the game to make you shoot out of a leather dice cup.
Which brings us to another question: how to makes controlled throws from a cup.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#20
moo321 said:
Which brings us to another question: how to makes controlled throws from a cup.
Seems like an equivalent of counting from a CSM. I don't think there are enough skilled DC's out there to cause a problem. But, who knows?
 
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