S17 vs H17 ?

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#1
I know we have had countless discussions on the subject but in your opinion what is the biggest difference between playing the two games. Some of us know one is better than the other but what is the critical point that the begginer should be aware of when looking at the two games.
 
#2
black

blackchipjim said:
I know we have had countless discussions on the subject but in your opinion what is the biggest difference between playing the two games. Some of us know one is better than the other but what is the critical point that the begginer should be aware of when looking at the two games.


When you have max bet and dealer has a 6 up,,flips an Ace, cool, I have 20,,,then hits again a 4!! Ya.... real nice.:(

Hit 17 is like a Cobra on that tree branch just over your head,,,always waiting to strike. The casinos know it and the uneducated don't realize the danger,,,it is the easiest rule change the casino can slip by the ignorant!!

CP
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#3
I used to avoid H17 games like the plague. However, it's tough to do nowadays. So, I balance the added 0.22% HE with penetration. I'll take a 6D H17 1 deck cut over a 6D S17 1.5 deck cut game.

There are a few differences in BS and index plays, as well, which I take into account, of course. Speaking of which, when I double A8 v 6 in an H17 game, which is proper BS, I usually get a bunch of incredulous looks and comments.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#4
21forme said:
I used to avoid H17 games like the plague. However, it's tough to do nowadays. So, I balance the added 0.22% HE with penetration. I'll take a 6D H17 1 deck cut over a 6D S17 1.5 deck cut game.

There are a few differences in BS and index plays, as well, which I take into account, of course. Speaking of which, when I double A8 v 6 in an H17 game, which is proper BS, I usually get a bunch of incredulous looks and comments.
I too used to avoid H17 games. When playing in AC, as most of my play was prior to this year, I had a small rotaion of 3 or
4 casinos that all offered S17. When in Vegas, I have started to play more H17. There just aren't enough S17 games at my unit level ($25). The whole purpose of spending more time in Vegas for me was access to more games. I wanted a larger rotation of games to play so I am not playing the same place over and over. Like 21forme I seek out games with better penetration to compensate the extra .22% IHA.

As for the "incredulous looks and comments", 21forme, I am surprised you would care. :confused: Just playing the three dozen or so indices that I use, I am often making plays that other players and/or dealers don't approve of. I have long since stopped caring what others think. I am not there to make friends. I am there to pay my mortgage. :)
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
#5
Kewl, do you still have a problem finding an abundance of S17 games given your normal spread? My problem is that I can't afford to play $25 min tables, so I'm stuck with H17. Like others have mentioned in the past, I try and make up for this by playing with decent or great penetration, late surrender, and a large spread. It's not ideal, but it's the direction games are going in; you can either change your strategy for the worse games, or simply give up counting if the extra 0.2% is going to be more than you can stomach.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#6
Lonesome Gambler said:
Kewl, do you still have a problem finding an abundance of S17 games given your normal spread? My problem is that I can't afford to play $25 min tables, so I'm stuck with H17. Like others have mentioned in the past, I try and make up for this by playing with decent or great penetration, late surrender, and a large spread. It's not ideal, but it's the direction games are going in; you can either change your strategy for the worse games, or simply give up counting if the extra 0.2% is going to be more than you can stomach.
Sorry, LG, I am not sure I understand the question. :confused:
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#7
kewljason said:
I too used to avoid H17 games. When playing in AC, as most of my play was prior to this year, I had a small rotaion of 3 or
4 casinos that all offered S17. When in Vegas, I have started to play more H17. There just aren't enough S17 games at my unit level ($25). The whole purpose of spending more time in Vegas for me was access to more games. I wanted a larger rotation of games to play so I am not playing the same place over and over. Like 21forme I seek out games with better penetration to compensate the extra .22% IHA.

As for the "incredulous looks and comments", 21forme, I am surprised you would care. :confused: Just playing the three dozen or so indices that I use, I am often making plays that other players and/or dealers don't approve of. I have long since stopped caring what others think. I am not there to make friends. I am there to pay my mortgage. :)
Knowing 21forme, I'm sure he doesn't care. He was just stating the obvious.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#8
blackchipjim said:
what is the critical point that the begginer should be aware of when looking at the two games.
Pen.

Some time ago I found a casino with a bunch of 6D/S17 tables cutting 1.5 decks, and a bunch of 8D/H17 tables cutting 0.5 decks. Which pit do you think I played?

Overall it's just a slight BS change, and a slight ramp change, due to the higher house edge. But those are only a couple of factors, as you well know.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#9
aslan said:
Knowing 21forme, I'm sure he doesn't care. He was just stating the obvious.
Exactly right, Aslan. I was just stating a fact, not complaining or caring about the comments. I actually find the comments entertaining. When I primarily played AC, I spent 80% of my time at the Hispanic version of the game, where comments about my play were flying with almost every hand.
 
#10
For a counter, H17 vs. S17 is less powerful than you might think, because at high counts the difference between the two narrows until it is negligible. The dealer needs at least two low cards to do anything with a soft 17 and if the low cards are gone he's more likely to bust his hand, instead of improve it. It's at low counts where H17 kills you, but we're suspiciously absent from the table for those. :cool:

I'd jump right over a S17 table to play a H17, LS table.
 
#11
Problem is

some players, even AP's, will play anything the casinos want to shove down your throat, and the excuses are varied, but I see them bandied about often.:rolleyes:

If I am going to play H-17 the casino better give me something very good in return, or they can get ######.

Give you something to ponder, H-17 is a -0.21, DAS is a +0.14,,in shoe games.

Ya, I really want to sit through an 8 deck, s-17 shoe,,hoping it gets good in the end, ....over my dead body! I know...wonging the 8 decker,,..,, I for sure have better things to do.:)

But then again I am not a Pro, I have a normal job. I am not at all at the mercy of the casino and the s### games they may decide to offer to pay my mortgage, which I have not had in 17 years BTW:1st:. Will someone please tell me how a 20 something full time gambler even gets a mortgage, especially these days,,,hmmm???:confused:

CP
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#12
creeping panther said:
Will someone please tell me how a 20 something full time gambler even gets a mortgage, especially these days,,,hmmm???:confused:

CP
Buying a foreclosed property in in one of the two or three most depressed, over built, real estate markets in the country isn't really dificult as long as you have a reasonable downpayment, CP. :eek: The question becomes will prices continue to drop, making it a bad investment or level off and start to rebound at some point. :confused:
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#13
creeping panther said:
some players, even AP's, will play anything the casinos want to shove down your throat, and the excuses are varied, but I see them bandied about often.:rolleyes:
An AP will play a beatable game, period. If he's playing unbeatable games, then he's not an AP.

If the game is mediocre, and he has no other options, as in AC, all the more power to him. Someone who can beat AC, can play anywhere.

kewljason said:
Buying a foreclosed property in in one of the two or three most depressed, over built, real estate markets in the country isn't really dificult as long as you have a reasonable downpayment, CP. :eek: The question becomes will prices continue to drop, making it a bad investment or level off and start to rebound at some point. :confused:
FYI, there was a story on Yahoo News this morning that the #1 city whose real estate prices are expected to drop the most over the next 12 months is AC (almost 10%).
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#14
21forme said:
An AP will play a beatable game, period. If he's playing unbeatable games, then he's not an AP.

If the game is mediocre, and he has no other options, as in AC, all the more power to him. Someone who can beat AC, can play anywhere.



FYI, there was a story on Yahoo News this morning that the #1 city whose real estate prices are expected to drop the most over the next 12 months is AC (almost 10%).
I saw it. For some time, I had been considering buying a condo in Ocean Club in AC, (between hilton and trop), before I decided to head west instead. I am glad I didn't. :eek:
 
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#15
kewljason said:
Sorry, LG, I am not sure I understand the question. :confused:
I was just curious as to whether or not you experience a lot of trouble in finding good S17 games at your level in Vegas. It seems like they're everywhere, but then again, you're probably not in any hurry to wear out your welcome at MGM properties.

Like AM said, H17 doesn't affect the counter nearly as much as the addition of other good rules, like LS. If you can find a H17 game with good pen and LS, I wouldn't think twice about playing it!
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#16
creeping panther said:
some players, even AP's, will play anything the casinos want to shove down your throat, and the excuses are varied, but I see them bandied about often.:rolleyes:

If I am going to play H-17 the casino better give me something very good in return, or they can get ######.

Give you something to ponder, H-17 is a -0.21, DAS is a +0.14,,in shoe games.

Ya, I really want to sit through an 8 deck, s-17 shoe,,hoping it gets good in the end, ....over my dead body! I know...wonging the 8 decker,,..,, I for sure have better things to do.:)

But then again I am not a Pro, I have a normal job. I am not at all at the mercy of the casino and the s### games they may decide to offer to pay my mortgage, which I have not had in 17 years BTW:1st:. Will someone please tell me how a 20 something full time gambler even gets a mortgage, especially these days,,,hmmm???:confused:

CP
I never knew what your status was as a player, fulltime, parttime ect and it doesn't really matter to me, but it does help explain your position on only playing the best games possible. As a parttime player, you can afford to do so. I guess there is a point that if the game offered isn't at a certain level, it is not worth your time and effort to play. And when it happens that all games fall below this level, you will just stop playing and take up some other hobby. This isn't a slap at you, that's your perogative. But I don't see why you should continually critize those of us that adjust to worsening games and/or find new ways to beat them as AP's have done for 5 decades now since the rules were first changed after beat the dealer first appeared.

I personally take great pride in supporting myself off of what you consider mediocre or substandard games. I am even more impressed with folks like machinist that have come up with ways to beat games that I would consider not playable, or the guy I met two weeks ago that is part of a video poker team.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#17
kewljason said:
I saw it. For some time, I had been considering buying a condo in Ocean Club in AC, (between hilton and trop), before I decided to head west instead. I am glad I didn't. :eek:
I was just talking today with a friend whose friend lives in AC and routinely earns a living playing poker. He said AC is a dead town, except for the gambling, which he does well at, there is nothing there.

Las Vegas is a good choice. P l e n t y of gambling, and 100 times better than AC in terms of interesting things to do in your off time.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#18

Only slightly tangential … If ALL rules and pen' are equal I will
play a shoe game with H17 and LS before a game that has S17.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#19
FLASH1296 said:

Only slightly tangential … If ALL rules and pen' are equal I will
play a shoe game with H17 and LS before a game that has S17.
LS sets the player free in a way S17 never can.

For me, I like how S17 allows me to play with much less fear against an Ace upcard. I also have slightly less fear against a 6 with a hand of 18, 19, 20.

On the other hand, S17 does make things slightly more dangerous if you have a stiff vs a dealer 6. Not like this is a good situation anyway though! :laugh:
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
#20
kewl is right on the ball (comments that are sad, but true) regarding those who play this game seriously or who play blackjack more often than the occasional "warrior" weekend getaways an enthusiast decides to take.

And my two cents for the op:
H17 and ls combo will outweigh any advantage s17 gives you given equal penetration. S17 without LS will likely have higher advantage up through TC of 2ish, but after that, as monkey points o ut, h17/LS will have the edge.
 
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