back betting

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#1
Have you ever back betted a person that is playing bj perfectly or near perfectly. You are backcounting the deck and it rises to good jump in point and you lay your money on the spot with the player only to spook the guy into dumb plays. I figuired the amount of money on his spot made him so nervous that he forgot how to play bj or just rattled him badly. I did this once for a few hands and didn't do it again because of his reaction to the bets even after he said it was fine. blackchipjim
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#2
I would never do it. You never know what a ploppy might do. Also, what if he should do an index play?

The only backbetting I've ever done is with a fellow forum member, and the game plan was discussed in advance.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#3
A "Scavenger Blackjack" technique

I have "back-lined" some as a wonger. I try to go for a small bettor, as s/he will almost always defer to my playing decision if he has a $15 bet and I have a $200+ bet riding. If his (incorrect index-based) play is a costly blunder, then I simply buy the hand from him, at a small extra cost, "locking in a profit" for him, if need be. If the hand is an obvious net loser I buy his hand for whatever he has bet or I toss in a $5 profit. He will be pleased to make money on a bad hand. If the hand is an obviously powerful play, I increase the incentive money. Sometimes, when the error is egregious, e.g. The hand is 11 and the dealer has a 6 with the ploppy afraid to double. I make his hand an automatic winner by insta-paying him, (as if he has just won), while seizing ownership of the hand. More often, if there is a huge difference in our bet sizes and the count is positive, I'll tell him "If you double and you lose I'll reimburse your (piddling) loss.", thus guaranteeing his win. He will jump at it and thank me later. Thus I gain his respect and he will defer to you thereafter.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#4
You are backbetting with a $200 bet on a player with a $25 bet. He's dealt a BJ and you are already counting your $300 win when he turns to you and says- Give me $50 right now or I'll take a hit.
Whatja gonna do?
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#5
All of this seems to assume you've found someone who's playing perfect or near-perfect BS, while not counting themselves.

I don't think this person exists.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#7
EasyRhino said:
All of this seems to assume you've found someone who's playing perfect or near-perfect BS, while not counting themselves.

I don't think this person exists.
This person does exist, as I knew perfect BS long before I got into counting. They sell BS cards in casino gift shops, they don't sell card counting books. It's a lot easier to find information on BS than it is on counting for the average player.

Plus, a lot of people are just too lazy to learn counting, or are intimidated by it. My girlfriend is an example of the latter.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#8
EasyRhino said:
All of this seems to assume you've found someone who's playing perfect or near-perfect BS, while not counting themselves.

I don't think this person exists.
They do. I played next to someone like this, largely flat-betting chunky black, dwarfing my red-green spread. He started betting behind me, and winning, the count rocketed way up, so I put bigger money out and started betting behind his hand, too. The dealer and crowd at the table got a kick out of it, especially since we were all winning. A hell of a session.

On index plays, I did "consult" when him when trying to decide a tough call, even though I'd always make the correct play in the end. He was totally fine with it.

(Of course, I left the table after all that..)
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#9
FLASH1296 said:
I have "back-lined" some as a wonger. I try to go for a small bettor, as s/he will almost always defer to my playing decision if he has a $15 bet and I have a $200+ bet riding. If his (incorrect index-based) play is a costly blunder, then I simply buy the hand from him, at a small extra cost, "locking in a profit" for him, if need be. If the hand is an obvious net loser I buy his hand for whatever he has bet or I toss in a $5 profit. He will be pleased to make money on a bad hand. If the hand is an obviously powerful play, I increase the incentive money. Sometimes, when the error is egregious, e.g. The hand is 11 and the dealer has a 6 with the ploppy afraid to double. I make his hand an automatic winner by insta-paying him, (as if he has just won), while seizing ownership of the hand. More often, if there is a huge difference in our bet sizes and the count is positive, I'll tell him "If you double and you lose I'll reimburse your (piddling) loss.", thus guaranteeing his win. He will jump at it and thank me later. Thus I gain his respect and he will defer to you thereafter.

I have never backlined because I guess I am a bit of a control freak. But I am becoming more interested in it as I am finding table limits at some casinos are becoming just that...limits. In the example you give here the control player has 7.5% of your bet ($200/$15) are you able to calculate in your mind if it is worth the 7.5% and buy him out to make an index play? I am thinking especially of cases where he is dealt hard 16 v X. The index says wave it but the BS ploppie wants to bang away. Do you buy the hand off him then just to wave a 16 v 10? I can't think of any I-18 deviations that would be worth 7.5% over BS unless you are looking at an astronomically good count.

But even if he doesn't want to double down a 10 or 11 are you able to calculate in your head if buying his hand out is worth the 7.5%? I haven't looked at the EV charts before posting this but my intuition tells me that there would be very, very few instances where "buying him out" would be worth the extra money.

And if buying him out once just to make a buddy who will defer to you everytime...do you do this to one person at every table in a busy casino? And then vulture onto them when you are ready to Wong In?

Just thinking about what CB BS deviations add to your overall edge (up to 1% overall with a complex count) would make me think that BS ploppie would have to be betting less than 1% of what you are betting to make it worth it and I haven't seen many table outside LV that will allow a 1:1000 bet spread at a table.

Am I missing something here?
 
Last edited:

rollem411

Well-Known Member
#10
shadroch said:
You are backbetting with a $200 bet on a player with a $25 bet. He's dealt a BJ and you are already counting your $300 win when he turns to you and says- Give me $50 right now or I'll take a hit.
Whatja gonna do?
:whip:
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#11
shadroch said:
You are backbetting with a $200 bet on a player with a $25 bet. He's dealt a BJ and you are already counting your $300 win when he turns to you and says- Give me $50 right now or I'll take a hit.
Whatja gonna do?
Most of the casinos where I live do not allow you to hit on a BJ in a shoe game. Do they let you do this at many casinos?
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#12
shadroch said:
You are backbetting with a $200 bet on a player with a $25 bet. He's dealt a BJ and you are already counting your $300 win when he turns to you and says- Give me $50 right now or I'll take a hit.
Whatja gonna do?
Now would that be a nice to do after he's been paying you a profit to not play bad hands, reimbursing losses on doubles, paying you 100% EV on other hands, paying you extra from time to time to not make a BS play. :)

Flash - did you say somewhere recently you are a risk-averse player?

Guess it's hard to say what's going on lol. I think maybe I'd rather be the ploppy though lol.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#13
Blue Efficacy said:
Most of the casinos where I live do not allow you to hit on a BJ in a shoe game. Do they let you do this at many casinos?
I've never seen a casino that wouldn't let you hit a BJ in a shoe game. Why wouldn't they? Where are there casinos that won't let you?
 
#14
shadroch said:
I've never seen a casino that wouldn't let you hit a BJ in a shoe game. Why wouldn't they? Where are there casinos that won't let you?
I've never seen it done. The only time I've ever considered it is in BJ derivatives that don't pay 3:2.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#15
shadroch said:
I've never seen a casino that wouldn't let you hit a BJ in a shoe game. Why wouldn't they? Where are there casinos that won't let you?
I'm from the midwast. The standard rule at all nearby casinos is "double down on any two cards except blackjack." I've read through house rule pamphlets, and they often say something to the effect of hand signals are required for all totals except blackjack, which shall be paid immediately at 3:2.

Maybe the regulations here are as such to protect anybody who would be foolish enough to do such a thing.
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#16
risk adverse

Yes Kasi I use risk adverse indices at times. It's not suppose to help all that much but use it when I need to. I would use them when I'm not catching the plays I should at the normally appropriate counts or some other factors. blackchipjim
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#17
blackchipjim said:
Yes Kasi I use risk adverse indices at times. It's not suppose to help all that much but use it when I need to. I would use them when I'm not catching the plays I should at the normally appropriate counts or some other factors. blackchipjim
Well I was just asking Flash but since you mention that you do use some risk-averse stuff from time to time or whatever, do you have any feelings on Flash's thoughts for "Scavenger Blackjack"?

Would you be comfortable doing some of the things he seems to suggest?

Just wondering. I suppose it might be possible to be a win-win situation for both parties?

Like the back guy is making $100/hr and the front guy is just flat-betting $5 playing BS. Just pay him 1-2 min bets each hour for the right to make the decisions? He's playing at +EV now and so are you but just a little less lol?

Would that be a win-win - a backcounter would never have to worry about having a spot?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#18
footnote

Footnote:

Casinos will let you hit on a BJ if you refuse the dealer's payoff -- or on a hard 20 for that matter.

Footnote: Doubling down on a BJ is strictly prohibited under the regulations of the N. J. Casino Control Commission.
 
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