Blue Heron Casino, Port Perry, Ontario

DonR

Well-Known Member
#1
Have any of you visited this casino? I've played there a few times and the results have been very bad, much worse than in any other casino I've played.

The table limits are $100, minimum bets vary from $10 to $25. Rules are pretty standard for any Ontario based casino: S17, DOA, DAS, pen varies, but I've seen some very good ones (87.5%). All tables are 8D, except one 6D table ($25-$100).

My experience here is that I have consistently seen some very good TC's, and have been consistently killed on those. Not even close to any other place. So many times I've seen TC go to +5, +6, or higher, pushing out my max bets, and getting killed, time after time.

I'm really starting to suspect some foul play here. Do you think that they may be pulling 10's out of those decks on a few tables, here and there?

When I look into the spreadsheet where I track my scores in all casinos I go to, this one is the worst, by far. Just a coincidence, or maybe something else?

I most likely will not go back to that place, but just wanted to hear your opinion. Am I seeing things here that do not exist, or have any of you experienced something similar?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#2
While being cheated is possible, it is highly doubtful.
The questions that your statements prompt are these:

1. How large a sample of sessions (of what length) do you have ?

If you are speaking of having recorded results of a few dozen sessions
(for a total of a few hundred hours), than in all likelihood,
your results lack a compelling degree of statistical significance.

2. Does the casino publicly "spread" the cards whenever new cards are put into play ?

This takes place, traditionally, once per day, in the early morning.
I would not play in a casino that did not perform this public inspection.
 

DonR

Well-Known Member
#3
FLASH1296 said:
While being cheated is possible, it is highly doubtful.
The questions that your statements prompt are these:

1. How large a sample of sessions (of what length) do you have ?

If you are speaking of having recorded results of a few dozen sessions
(for a total of a few hundred hours), than in all likelihood,
your results lack a compelling degree of statistical significance.

2. Does the casino publicly "spread" the cards whenever new cards are put into play ?

This takes place, traditionally, once per day, in the early morning.
I would not play in a casino that did not perform this public inspection.
1. The sample is rather small, definitely less than a few hundred hours, more like 40-50. I agree with you, with regards to statistical significance. It is just that when I look at my spreadsheet, this casino's results look much worse than anything else. Probably, just bad luck...or some voodoo, maybe. :grin:

2. Frankly, I don't know. I have never witnessed it in this casino. I have seen it in other casinos, but I've never been in this one that early.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#4
DonR said:
Have any of you visited this casino? I've played there a few times and the results have been very bad, much worse than in any other casino I've played.

The table limits are $100, minimum bets vary from $10 to $25. Rules are pretty standard for any Ontario based casino: S17, DOA, DAS, pen varies, but I've seen some very good ones (87.5%). All tables are 8D, except one 6D table ($25-$100).

My experience here is that I have consistently seen some very good TC's, and have been consistently killed on those. Not even close to any other place. So many times I've seen TC go to +5, +6, or higher, pushing out my max bets, and getting killed, time after time.

I'm really starting to suspect some foul play here. Do you think that they may be pulling 10's out of those decks on a few tables, here and there?

When I look into the spreadsheet where I track my scores in all casinos I go to, this one is the worst, by far. Just a coincidence, or maybe something else?

I most likely will not go back to that place, but just wanted to hear your opinion. Am I seeing things here that do not exist, or have any of you experienced something similar?
Bad results are not a good reason to suspect cheating. You need something suspicious to have happened.

1. Was the count ALWAYS high at the end of the shoe? If so, they may have shorted the shoe.
2. Were you watching the dealer's eyes? If their eyes went to the shoe frequently when they weren't dealing a card, they may have had a peeking device.
3. Did you watch your payouts?
4. How did they shuffle? Was it possible for them to introduce a stacked deck, at least for the first hand?
 

DonR

Well-Known Member
#5
moo321 said:
1. Was the count ALWAYS high at the end of the shoe? If so, they may have shorted the shoe.
I don't think it was always high, but for the majority of shoes it was. That's what killed me.

moo321 said:
2. Were you watching the dealer's eyes? If their eyes went to the shoe frequently when they weren't dealing a card, they may have had a peeking device.
What kind of a peeking device? Never heard of that. Please PM me, if you don't want to elaborate this in public.

moo321 said:
3. Did you watch your payouts?
That wasn't the problem, I'm pretty sure.

moo321 said:
4. How did they shuffle? Was it possible for them to introduce a stacked deck, at least for the first hand?
They hand shuffle at this place, with the exception of CSM's, which I never play, anyway. How can they stack a deck? Again, if you prefer, please PM me.
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#6
DonR said:
Have any of you visited this casino? I've played there a few times and the results have been very bad, much worse than in any other casino I've played.

The table limits are $100, minimum bets vary from $10 to $25. Rules are pretty standard for any Ontario based casino: S17, DOA, DAS, pen varies, but I've seen some very good ones (87.5%). All tables are 8D, except one 6D table ($25-$100).

My experience here is that I have consistently seen some very good TC's, and have been consistently killed on those. Not even close to any other place. So many times I've seen TC go to +5, +6, or higher, pushing out my max bets, and getting killed, time after time.

I'm really starting to suspect some foul play here. Do you think that they may be pulling 10's out of those decks on a few tables, here and there?

When I look into the spreadsheet where I track my scores in all casinos I go to, this one is the worst, by far. Just a coincidence, or maybe something else?

I most likely will not go back to that place, but just wanted to hear your opinion. Am I seeing things here that do not exist, or have any of you experienced something similar?
I doubt you are not being cheated. You just had some sour results. Ontario casinos are protected by bad games which are difficult to beat and variance is a mistress we all avoid. The OLG scams over the last few years would have cracked down on any house cheating that would have been going on which I doubt there was. All Canadian casinos spread the cards out for public inspection at card change as Flash mentioned. Watch for this and "publically insect" that all the cards are in the deck. If they do not spread the cards for public inspection or if some cards are missing they are not following procedure and you should immediately notify the OLG and the AGLC and tell them the time/table number/dealer/floorman involved.
 
#7
I play at Great Blue Heron weekly and it's above board. I have been there many times when they put new cards into play , and they fan all 6 or 8 decks out in plain view for all to see. Of course I have had sessions also there where I wondered whether things were 'normal'...like losing $2K or more in a session, losing all the big bets at high counts. It's just 'normal' variance/fluctuation that we have to deal with and have the stomach and bankroll to get through. It's all about results in the long run... and it might take hundreds of hours of play to get there....

FrankD
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#8
Frank,

If you think that you can so much as catch a shadowy glimpse
of the "Long Run" on a distant horizon - after hundreds
of hours you are sadly mistaken.

You may get a bare inkling of the long run after playing many thousands of hours.
:laugh:
Until then, just keep on truckin'
 
#9
My point was the same as yours. I know very well how this works. I have been playing about 500 hours per year, for 5 years. Even over an entire year of play, one cannot make any conclusions about any specific casino, or even be guaranteed a positive result. I will tell you that over 5 years I have done quite well though.
The probability of me giving back all my winnings is *extremely* small at this stage, so I consider myself well into the long run.... but I won't talk details here in public :)
FrankD
 

actuary

Well-Known Member
#10
I played at this casino once, back when I was living in Toronto, maybe about 4 years ago. From my first hand on their 6D table, I lost 14 hands in a row. Not pushes, I'm talking pure losses. And I was wonging, playing positive counts only.

I might have gone on to lose more hands in a row, but after the 14th hand they kicked me out of the casino.

I will never go back to that dump!
 
#11
So what did you do to get "kicked out"? Particularly since you were losing, I can't imagine any reason to get the boot there unless being very drunk or very abusive. And if you were drunk, they would make sure you were not driving.... they are very careful about that kind of stuff...

FD
 

actuary

Well-Known Member
#12
frankied53 said:
So what did you do to get "kicked out"? Particularly since you were losing, I can't imagine any reason to get the boot there unless being very drunk or very abusive. And if you were drunk, they would make sure you were not driving.... they are very careful about that kind of stuff...

FD
I don't drink alcohol, so it wasn't that. Two guys came up and asked to see my ID. They told me some bullspit about AGCO rules that prohibited me from playing based on my ID (my Quebec drivers license). I forget the reason they stated or what part of the Act they cited, but whatever it was, it was nonsensical. Basically, they made up an excuse to kick me out for counting. I wasn't going to fight because the two suits that approached me were HUGE.
 
#13
Very strange....I assume then your ID was checked at the door... you'd figure if something was fishy about your ID, they would have not let you in at all. I have been playing there for 5 years, and never saw anyone turfed....well maybe once or twice they put someone in a cab for being drunk or rowdy...

FD
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#15
ricopuno said:
If any of you guys notice an asian looking guy who is not scared to show that he is wonging. That's me.
ricopuno said:
My style at Blue Heron is to Wong in only. Even the pit boss is watching me closely I still Wong in and I was never quick out. Maybe because they lowered the Max. bet from $500 to $100.
Don't be getting all cockey now. Just because you've been getting away with it in the past doesn't mean it will continue in the future. All it takes is for a change in management or a policy change during hard times for the casino then all of a sudden you might be out the door and wondering what the hell just happened. Never take a casino for granted, I'm speaking from experience.
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#18
Wow, way to out yourself.
Never underestimate the pit.
What I noticed while playing in Canadian casino's is they do not give you heat like in USA, they will not shuffle up on you, they will not crowd around you, they will not intimidate you. I guess Canadians are just too polite!!

The games are generally hard to beat ($100 limits, yuck) and all it takes is one suit to notice and care and you are out the door with a tresspass to property notice wondering "what can I do now? I thought they were stupid or I was invisible".
 
#20
He, he, he......

Canadians are very polite.

By the way today I won $401 against the 1 arm bandit.

I think I can exploit the RNG without cheating. But i will not tell........

He, he ,he !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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