Crown Casino

Koz1984

Well-Known Member
#1
What can I say? Crown has made upstairs ENTIRELY Sports BJ, with 6:5 payouts and not a shoe in site. 5 years ago I could go into that same area and play an S17, 3:2 shoe game for as little as $10. Hopefully the Monte Carlo and Teak rooms remain the same, especially with their juicy penetration. However, one would be a fool to attempt to 'play-all' unless their bankroll was sufficient. Wonging is the only way to go, however, I am afraid I become too obvious when I table hop the same 3-5 tables every week.
 

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
#2
Koz1984 said:
What can I say? Crown has made upstairs ENTIRELY Sports BJ, with 6:5 payouts and not a shoe in site. 5 years ago I could go into that same area and play an S17, 3:2 shoe game for as little as $10. Hopefully the Monte Carlo and Teak rooms remain the same, especially with their juicy penetration. However, one would be a fool to attempt to 'play-all' unless their bankroll was sufficient. Wonging is the only way to go, however, I am afraid I become too obvious when I table hop the same 3-5 tables every week.
Wait. wait. wait.

They have made their entire main floor Sports BJ, where BJ is 6-5 and dealer hits soft 17?

This is so utterly appalling I feel sick. I honestly do.

This is what happens when a country's discourse on gambling is based entirely on moralistic "idiot welfare-recipients feeding the kiddies' cereal money into the pokies" terms. In order to "restrict the evil" they create predatory monopoly-casinos that combine the very worst aspects of big business and paternalistic big government. Said monopolies only face competition in the High Limit market, and thus the people who get screwed over are the exact "little people low rollers" that the moralists claim to be protecting.

And of course, given that the government is extracting gambling taxes and the monopoly is extracting monopoly profits from the endeavour, both sides have a vested interest in preventing a liberalization of the gaming market (even if governments would probably get more tax revenue if they did liberalize it), with a convenient moralistic rationalization for refraining from doing so.

But then again, we all know that sensible, rational economic analysis does not drive policy decisions in this country (see Rudd's roof-insulation 'stimulus' program... and the 40% mining tax).
 

Koz1984

Well-Known Member
#3
Upstairs, yes. The downstairs area boasts a single pit akin to the rules above and just one pit ($25-$100) with regular BJ. "Regular" of course meaning 8 deck, H17, D9-11 only.
 

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
#4
Koz1984 said:
Upstairs, yes. The downstairs area boasts a single pit akin to the rules above and just one pit ($25-$100) with regular BJ. "Regular" of course meaning 8 deck, H17, D9-11 only.
Thanks for the info.

This really makes Crown, literally, the worst BJ in the world.

**** you Crown. I will never patronize your casinos anywhere in the world.

I assume you mean "all blackjack on the second floor is 6:5, and on the first floor there is only one blackjack pit, and this blackjack pit has the rules listed above"...

Oh god. This is so deeply, terribly appalling.
 

Koz1984

Well-Known Member
#5
Yes upstairs is all CSM based 6:5 "Sports BJ", however, I must clarify what is downstairs. There are two BJ pits, one incorporating the rules above, and one pit with regular "Crown BJ". This is a shoe based game, D9-11, 3:2 BJ. $25-$100.

In my opinion, the only way to beat Crown would be to go the the Monte Carlo or Maple room, which have Crown's "Premier BJ" rules, and back count. Also, the Mahogany Room, using the S17 rule, would be great, however, one must be at least a Platinum level Signature Club member.

I was reading the the VCGR rules last night and saw that Crown also offers "Premium Doubling BJ", similar to the rules found in the Maple and Monte Carlo rooms, however, you may double on any total of cards! Does anyone know where these tables are found?? I wish they also brought back "Vegas BJ" with 4 decks and LS!
 

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
#6
Koz1984 said:
Yes upstairs is all CSM based 6:5 "Sports BJ", however, I must clarify what is downstairs. There are two BJ pits, one incorporating the rules above, and one pit with regular "Crown BJ". This is a shoe based game, D9-11, 3:2 BJ. $25-$100.
Thanks for the clarification. Sports Blackjack only allows you to double on 9 to 11, right?

Whether it does or doesn't, that does not change the fact that Crown blackjack is a hideous proposition. Even inside the Monte Carlo or Maple rooms you have a house edge worse than the main floor of Star City or any of the Queensland casinos.

As for Premium Doubling Blackjack, the edge of Premier BJ is 0.65% approximately. Premium Doubling drops the edge to 0.44%, so its roughly as good as the Mahogany Room. Don't expect it to be anywhere outside the Mahogany Room. If they use it at all, that is.

I'd also anticipate they threw out Vegas BJ as well.

The only way Crown will learn its lesson if people stop playing BJ at Crown.
 

Koz1984

Well-Known Member
#7
Yes, D9-11 only. I understand your feelings on the edge at Crown, however, be thankful that those rooms are actually beatable. Most places in Australia are ALL CSM based now, so despite having a lower edge ( ~ 0.5%), you will never win. I have been to Sydney, Brisbane, and Adelaide, and never seen a shoe in my entire life. This could be because I do not look around enough, or theyre in VIP rooms, but I am fairly sure theyre predominantly CSM.
 

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
#8
Koz1984 said:
Yes, D9-11 only. I understand your feelings on the edge at Crown, however, be thankful that those rooms are actually beatable. Most places in Australia are ALL CSM based now, so despite having a lower edge ( ~ 0.5%), you will never win. I have been to Sydney, Brisbane, and Adelaide, and never seen a shoe in my entire life. This could be because I do not look around enough, or theyre in VIP rooms, but I am fairly sure theyre predominantly CSM.
Well, as a basic strategy player I don't necessarily loathe CSMs per se, although I find CSM dealt games have relatively little variance and are thus less fun.

If a CSM game uses 5 or 6 decks and deals out one or two decks before putting the cards back into the machine, that provides some variance and still keeps the game more-or-less uncountable.

In many ways it is counter-intuitive for CSMs to be used on the crappy-rules low-limits tables since counting can only cause significant damage to casinos if done in a high-limit room. So the only real benefit a casino gets from using a CSM on a low-limit table is speeding up the game. However, a shoe+ASM situation is just as effective as doing that (or at least reasonably close), and it probably is cheaper as well. CSMs are not inexpensive.

So, in short, I can tolerate a CSM if its on a low-house edge game (and ideally they deal out a deck or so before putting the cards back in). But by low house edge I mean Macau rules. Australian casinos using a CSM rather than, say, a modest-penetration shoe (because yes, casinos should prevent high-limit card counting, although I think they should turn a blind-eye to the low-limit counters) is beyond unfair; it is bizzare and illogical even from the Casino's point of view. It demonstrates nothing but contempt for the customers, but unfortunately in a government-sanctioned monopoly we can expect little better.

As for Brisbane and Sydney, they are Tabcorp casinos so I think they are all CSM (except high limit, which is shoe hand-shuffled), except I've heard that Treasury occasionally has a shoe game on the lower level.
 

Koz1984

Well-Known Member
#9
Yeah, for the BS player, I understand where you're coming from. However, I, along with a few friends of mine, play for profits. So we have to work through the shoe games at Crown. On Saturday night I back counted for over 2 hours, with nothing eventuating. Its a grueling and much more difficult process, but we'd rather play with an edge.
 
#10
Koz1984 said:
Yeah, for the BS player, I understand where you're coming from. However, I, along with a few friends of mine, play for profits. So we have to work through the shoe games at Crown. On Saturday night I back counted for over 2 hours, with nothing eventuating. Its a grueling and much more difficult process, but we'd rather play with an edge.
I understand. Well, I wish both yourself and your friends best of luck beating Crown!
 

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
#14
Koz1984 said:
Yes, including alcoholic drinks. And food you can nibble on, i.e nuts.
Understand. That's a relief. Every other casino in Australia has free drinks only in high-limit rooms (i.e. no less than $50 per hand tables). At least at Crown you can get free drinks at a $30 per hand level (when the MC, Maple and Teak rooms have $30 tables, that is).

Still, I have no plans to ever gamble at Crown. I'd rather save up for my impending Vegas trip/bender/sin-fest/debauchery-overdose/etc.
 
#15
Hello,

I was in Crown recently in September, and these are the games they currently have.

Upstairs main floor: $5-$15 Sports Blackjack, all CSM, only opens on Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun day to grave shift. max bet on $5 table is $100.

Mainfloor: $10-$25 Sports Blackjack and on those all CSM.
$25-$100 BJ, shoe, H17, 8deck, d9-11 only, 2 splits. Only 3 available $25 tables, which i highly recommend not attending for the AP. The next step up is the $30 tables, which is a sneaky marketing ploy by Crown.

Maple and Monte Carlo: $30-$100 BJ, shoe, H17, double on any initial total, 2 splits and only 5 available boxes not the 7 boxes. min-max on $30 table is $30-$1800. One $30 and $100 table in Maple room, where all the baccarat degens hang out. Usually in Monte Carlo there are three $30 and two $100 tables open during the day but opens to four $30 and two $100 tables at night on thurs fri sat sun.

On a side note, all $2.50 roulette are now 00, only $5-$25 roulette is single 0; with the ratio of tables being 1:3, 0 vs 00.

Crown is surely raking in the money only because they are the ONLY casino in Victoria, and a monopolizer can dictate the rules.
 

Brock Windsor

Well-Known Member
#16
In her book Walker states comps in Australia are some of the best in the world with $5k in front money and a passport. Any idea what kind of front money it would take to get comped a flight from the US?
Also anyone ever play NZ? I like to subsidize my vacations with gambling if I can.
Thanks,
BW
 
#17
blacklotus said:
Hello,

I was in Crown recently in September, and these are the games they currently have.

Upstairs main floor: $5-$15 Sports Blackjack, all CSM, only opens on Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun day to grave shift. max bet on $5 table is $100.

Mainfloor: $10-$25 Sports Blackjack and on those all CSM.
$25-$100 BJ, shoe, H17, 8deck, d9-11 only, 2 splits. Only 3 available $25 tables, which i highly recommend not attending for the AP. The next step up is the $30 tables, which is a sneaky marketing ploy by Crown.

Maple and Monte Carlo: $30-$100 BJ, shoe, H17, double on any initial total, 2 splits and only 5 available boxes not the 7 boxes. min-max on $30 table is $30-$1800. One $30 and $100 table in Maple room, where all the baccarat degens hang out. Usually in Monte Carlo there are three $30 and two $100 tables open during the day but opens to four $30 and two $100 tables at night on thurs fri sat sun.

On a side note, all $2.50 roulette are now 00, only $5-$25 roulette is single 0; with the ratio of tables being 1:3, 0 vs 00.

Crown is surely raking in the money only because they are the ONLY casino in Victoria, and a monopolizer can dictate the rules.
Blacklotus,

Thank you for the updates. Its official; Crown still sucks monkey testicles.

On the bright side, it is good that $5 Roulette players can still get single zero roulette. To be honest I think Crown should just abolish $2.50 Roulette tables.

Still, this proves Crown has without question the worst Blackjack on the planet, since all Sports BJ pays 6:5!!!
 
#18
Brock Windsor said:
In her book Walker states comps in Australia are some of the best in the world with $5k in front money and a passport. Any idea what kind of front money it would take to get comped a flight from the US?
Also anyone ever play NZ? I like to subsidize my vacations with gambling if I can.
Thanks,
BW
Brock,

5k upfront will not get you into a high limit room per se; those need 10k upfront.

As for NZ, I know that NZ rules are SLIGHTLY more liberal than Australian ones, but the difference is minor... 0.04% more in your favor. All NZ casinos are owned by the same people (Skycity Entertainment Group), but their rules are better than Australian ones generally.

I wouldn't know about comps in Australia; casinos never let me in because I am gothic and apparently my clothes constitute a public safety hazard. Of course, nowhere in Macau or Vegas has ever denied me entry.
 
#19
blacklotus said:
Hello,

I was in Crown recently in September, and these are the games they currently have.

Upstairs main floor: $5-$15 Sports Blackjack, all CSM, only opens on Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun day to grave shift. max bet on $5 table is $100.

Mainfloor: $10-$25 Sports Blackjack and on those all CSM.
$25-$100 BJ, shoe, H17, 8deck, d9-11 only, 2 splits. Only 3 available $25 tables, which i highly recommend not attending for the AP. The next step up is the $30 tables, which is a sneaky marketing ploy by Crown.

Maple and Monte Carlo: $30-$100 BJ, shoe, H17, double on any initial total, 2 splits and only 5 available boxes not the 7 boxes. min-max on $30 table is $30-$1800. One $30 and $100 table in Maple room, where all the baccarat degens hang out. Usually in Monte Carlo there are three $30 and two $100 tables open during the day but opens to four $30 and two $100 tables at night on thurs fri sat sun.

On a side note, all $2.50 roulette are now 00, only $5-$25 roulette is single 0; with the ratio of tables being 1:3, 0 vs 00.

Crown is surely raking in the money only because they are the ONLY casino in Victoria, and a monopolizer can dictate the rules.
A few errors there.
Upstairs is open 24 / 7...only 3 - 4 tables are open on graveyard.

Mainfloor: The only 6:5 tables are $15. No such thing as $25 6:5 at Crown.

There is also $15-$100 pontoon tables that pay the 3:2 however they are dealt from the CSM's.
 
#20
Hi all,

I'm new to the forums, and decided to sign up because I have recently decided to commit to comprehensively learning card counting and basic strategy, which I have dabbled in for a year or two.

I'm moving to Melbourne on the 23rd of February, for university, and I plan to eventually be skilled enough that I will be able to regularly win at the Crown Casino. However, I'm somewhat disheartened by the fact that the Crown appears to have terrible rules for counters. I haven't yet learned basic strategy, but went into the casino the other day to try my hand at keeping the count with a full-speed dealer, and found that I was able to do so with relatively few errors.

I'd be very interested in joining a group (Koz1984, would you consider letting me join yours?), to consolidate my skills in real time, under guidance, and to eventually start netting profits for the team. This sounds like a great project to me, and if you agree and are based in Melbourne, let me know.

Thanks, and it's a pleasure to meet you all.

Cheers,
Franklint
 
Top