Visual Acuity

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#1
I am not a seasoned practitioner of advanced strategies, nor do I claim to be, but there is one common theme I have heard about regarding ST'ing and HC'ing: the need for visual acuity.

I imagine that the variety of visual acuity needed for HC'ing is much different than that called for by ST'ing. With ST'ing, you are going to need to be able to differentiate between discard trays (and lying stacks) that differ by only a few cards, whereas with HC'ing, I imagine one would need to be able to quickly identify what was seen, after only partially seeing the card for fractions of a second.

Last night, with this in mind, I recalled an old story that my relatives had told me long ago. Whether or not the story is accurate (I'm sure google could quickly confirm or deny this) is not the matter here; rather, it is the theme. The story goes as follows. Supposedly, back in their day, movie theatres had been found guilty of inserting frames of ice splashing into coca-cola and etcetera into their films. Because the human brain cannot (consciously at least) recognize a single-frame that flashes in front of their eyes, the audience members were not aware that this was happening. However, the story goes on to say that authorities had found that the arrival of the subliminal messages correlated very well with a more than normal number of persons getting out of their seats to go to visit the concession stands.

Now, let me distinguish what I am about to discuss here from a matter that would be more appropriate for the voodoo forum. What I am NOT suggesting is that we have another discussion regarding intuition and guessing what the hole-card is if you think your subconscious picked up an image of it. This is not the matter.

What I am thinking of doing is creating a few videos--for those that are curious--that help one determine for how many frames the card has to be flashed, so that it can be consciously recognized. What I would do is make a video (probably containing scenes from some of my favorite movies / videos) that every so often flashes an image of a playing card. The first time it will flash for only one frame, then two frames, then three, and etc. After each flash will be commentary like the following, "Did you miss it? That was 'x' frames."

Obviously this project will not be intended to serve as any form of training for spotting a hole-card. Rather, it will be an interesting experiment that will give one an idea as to how long a card has to be flashed for their conscious mind to recognize it. Perhaps, it will be interesting to see how everyone does compared to others. Perhaps, if some HC'ers chime in, it might be interesting to see how many frames the card had to be flashed for them to recognize the card.

Will there be any interest for such a serious of videos?

Good Cards,

Spaw

P.S.--I wouldn't mind if someone stole the idea and made the vids themselves, as I wouldn't be able to begin the project for at least a few weeks. My schedule is crazy right now.
 

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#2
I'm not happy with the idea that a single frame in cinema (1/24 of a second) cannot be seen. It is true that ~24 frames per second offers the illusion of a moving picture, but that doesn't mean that an image of 1/24th second cannot be seen.

My monitor runs at 120Hz, and it's easy to present pictures that are far more shorter than 1/24 second. If you know there's something comming, you can see it. Of course this depends on contrast...
 
#3
Southpaw said:
Perhaps, if some HC'ers chime in, it might be interesting to see how many frames the card had to be flashed for them to recognize the card.
As we discussed in an off-board mode, some flash is soooo minute that our recognition of it borders on intuition. zg
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#5
MangoJ said:
I'm not happy with the idea that a single frame in cinema (1/24 of a second) cannot be seen. It is true that ~24 frames per second offers the illusion of a moving picture, but that doesn't mean that an image of 1/24th second cannot be seen.

My monitor runs at 120Hz, and it's easy to present pictures that are far more shorter than 1/24 second. If you know there's something comming, you can see it. Of course this depends on contrast...
Hmmm ... so one frame is 1/24th of a second? I wonder if my video editing software (Pinnacle) allows the user to make a frame flash at an even quicker rate.

Have you ever tried taking a picture of a television that is on, only to find that it appears off (or semi-off) in the picture. Clearly that is not recognizable. I wonder if there is software to allow images to flash that quickly.

Spaw
 
#6
Southpaw said:
Supposedly, back in their day, movie theatres had been found guilty of inserting frames of ice splashing into coca-cola and etcetera into their films. Because the human brain cannot (consciously at least) recognize a single-frame that flashes in front of their eyes, the audience members were not aware that this was happening. However, the story goes on to say that authorities had found that the arrival of the subliminal messages correlated very well with a more than normal number of persons getting out of their seats to go to visit the concession stands.
Although it may have been outlawed for theaters, the science continues to be exploited unabated throughout the myriad of media. zg
 
#7
Southpaw said:
Have you ever tried taking a picture of a television that is on, only to find that it appears off (or semi-off) in the picture. Clearly that is not recognizable. I wonder if there is software to allow images to flash that quickly.
Called "white space" as in empty, that TV off space will increasingly be leased by other service providers for new apps. zg
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#9
Southpaw said:
Hmmm ... so one frame is 1/24th of a second? I wonder if my video editing software (Pinnacle) allows the user to make a frame flash at an even quicker rate.
Video in the United States (and other countries that use NTSC format) have a frame rate of about 30 frames per second so you should be able to do a little better than 1/24.

-Sonny-
 

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#10
Sonny said:
Video in the United States (and other countries that use NTSC format) have a frame rate of about 30 frames per second so you should be able to do a little better than 1/24.

-Sonny-
Video is 1/30 (NTSC), cinema is 1/24. PC is 1/60+ (up to 1/200) for special hardware.
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#11
Sonny said:
Video in the United States (and other countries that use NTSC format) have a frame rate of about 30 frames per second so you should be able to do a little better than 1/24.

-Sonny-
MangoJ said:
Video is 1/30 (NTSC), cinema is 1/24. PC is 1/60+ (up to 1/200) for special hardware.
Thank you for these clarifications. I am hoping my software will allow very high frequency flashes.

I plan to get started within 2 weeks.

Best,

Spaw
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#12
Well, it does appear that pinnacle studio 14 allows images to be flashed no quicker than 30Hz. Indeed, MangoJ is correct in that the eye can see images flashed this quickly. (It still would be difficult to tell what a card was, I think, if the card was displayed in the context (i.e., angle or view) that a HC'er has to probably deal with).

Does anyone know the names of any specific softwares that support higher frame rates? (Perhaps there may be a way to make pinnacle 14 compatible with a higher frame rate).

More later,

Spaw
 
#13
Southpaw said:
Well, it does appear that pinnacle studio 14 allows images to be flashed no quicker than 30Hz. Indeed, MangoJ is correct in that the eye can see images flashed this quickly. (It still would be difficult to tell what a card was, I think, if the card was displayed in the context (i.e., angle or view) that a HC'er has to probably deal with).

Does anyone know the names of any specific softwares that support higher frame rates? (Perhaps there may be a way to make pinnacle 14 compatible with a higher frame rate).
Sounds like a new module for QFIT/CV in the making. zg
 

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#14
A video software is not very likely to produce framerates faster than 30 frames per second - simply as there is no common video standard for that.

You would need a software which syncs to your monitor repetition rate. Even with that you need to be careful to not use a TFT or LCD screen, as those screens are usually slower (at least they used to).

I'm sure there is something of this kind available...
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#15
zengrifter said:
Sounds like a new module for QFIT/CV in the making. zg
I think we need to be careful regarding what we claim the program will be useful for, as I was in my OP.

I don't want a certain member to chime in here (or on his own forum) flaming me for trying to make a method of practicing HC'ing other than real casino experience. (Which is not the intent, if one reads my OP).

Spaw
 
#16
Southpaw said:
I think we need to be careful regarding what we claim the program will be useful for, as I was in my OP.

I don't want a certain member to chime in here (or on his own forum) flaming me for trying to make a method of practicing HC'ing other than real casino experience. (Which is not the intent, if one reads my OP).

Spaw
So very diplomatically well put, young Spaw. You will go far. z:laugh:g
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#17
MangoJ said:
A video software is not very likely to produce framerates faster than 30 frames per second - simply as there is no common video standard for that.

You would need a software which syncs to your monitor repetition rate. Even with that you need to be careful to not use a TFT or LCD screen, as those screens are usually slower (at least they used to).

I'm sure there is something of this kind available...
Modern LCD rates are very high; typically 60Hz or more. Many video games run this fast (and faster) with complex rendering. It wouldn't be difficult to create something to flash cards for practice.

I'd be more curious if this kind of practice was known to be effective; I seem to remember CAA saying it was not, but I could be mistaken.
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#19
johndoe said:
I'd be more curious if this kind of practice was known to be effective; I seem to remember CAA saying it was not, but I could be mistaken.
Of course this kind of practice is going to be effective. There are many methods for improving visual acuity and this is one of them.

Galileo discovered the four largest moons of Jupiter using a only a 20 power telescope. There's probably not ONE person here, myself included, that could even SEE the Galilean moons with a 20x instrument, unless they've had hundreds of hours of intense eye training.
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#20
Machinist said:
Hmmmmmm......not seeing the point.....Have I missed something?

Machinist
As I think I have already made clear, I am not trying to make a software that, so as to train to be a HC'er, but rather so that one (if they are curious) could see how long a card would need to be able to be flashed such that it would be recognizable by their conscious mind.

You don't sound very curious.

As a side-note, it was mentioned that it would be interesting if some HC'ers chimed in and mentioned how long it needed to be flashed for them, perhaps for interesting comparision.

Spaw
 
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