Edge in relation to pen

Dopple

Well-Known Member
#1
I am going to take the actual edge of a game in more serious consideration.

Is their a hard number you could equate to pen express in terms of edge. Many time we see the cut card vary from 1.5 to 1 in 6d and I have seen DD as high as 90% sometimes.

Could you put a number on other players in expressed in terms of edge.

Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge fellow gamblers.:laugh:
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#2
Dopple said:
I am going to take the actual edge of a game in more serious consideration.

Is their a hard number you could equate to pen express in terms of edge. Many time we see the cut card vary from 1.5 to 1 in 6d and I have seen DD as high as 90% sometimes.

Could you put a number on other players in expressed in terms of edge.

Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge fellow gamblers.:laugh:
a hard number on the value of pen, i dunno but like if you had say cvcx, you can adjust the pen and observe how values such as winrate change for the better or worse, sort of thing.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#3
Deep Pen' is the prime characteristic of a profitable game.

A bad game with deep pen is preferably to a game with great rules and shallow pen'
 

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#4
FLASH1296 said:
Deep Pen' is the prime characteristic of a profitable game.

A bad game with deep pen is preferably to a game with great rules and shallow pen'
Sorta what Flash is alluding to....

If I'm not mistaken, the House Edge calculation is not dependent on penetration.

Penetration affects game quality. Win rate is dependent on penetration. etc.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#5
Dopple said:
Is their a hard number you could equate to pen express in terms of edge. Many time we see the cut card vary from 1.5 to 1 in 6d and I have seen DD as high as 90% sometimes.

Could you put a number on other players in expressed in terms of edge.
That what Schlesinger's SCORE does. One of the posters on bj21.com's Green Chip (Fine Tuner) posts the top 30 or so SCOREs of LV games every month within a few days after CBJN comes out.
 
#6
Bj21

21forme said:
That what Schlesinger's SCORE does. One of the posters on bj21.com's Green Chip (Fine Tuner) posts the top 30 or so SCOREs of LV games every month within a few days after CBJN comes out.
How nice of him, to alert the casino to those facts, sweeeeet:rolleyes:

CBJN is subscribed to by many, many casinos.

I will never forget the time a gaming manager came to my table stood in front of that table and paged through CBJN. Within 2 weeks he was responding to my posts on GC. MY RFB and welcome at that casino ended soon afterward, so did their GREAT games.

CP
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#7
creeping panther said:
How nice of him, to alert the casino to those facts, sweeeeet:rolleyes:
CP
You think the casinos don't already know their own rules and penetration? That's all that goes into the SCORE report.
 
#8
21

21forme said:
You think the casinos don't already know their own rules and penetration? That's all that goes into the SCORE report.
Actually, unlike us, I doubt they give it much thought, many but not all.

Once they see it it tends to make them think. If you need CBJN and the score spelled out...well.....

CP
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#9
Dopple said:
I am going to take the actual edge of a game in more serious consideration...
While you are at it, take the risk to your roll into more serious consideration too.

Of course, there are "hard numbers" for both.
 

Dopple

Well-Known Member
#10
I dont know what my ROR is in numbers but I am easily betting full Kelly as I have over 1 percent of my roll out on max bets. I just know I have never hurt so bad I wanted to quit and always bounced back.

By the way I play mostly 6d Kasi since you asked in the other post but I am trying to get as much DD as I can now.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#11
Dopple said:
I dont know what my ROR is in numbers....
Well, I can't put a number on "pain".

OTOH, maybe I can and always have.

Try playing 7000 rounds and being down 3.7 stan dev from expected if flat-betting.

Trust me, turns out it's very, very painful, the more so for how long it is lasting.

Yet, 30000-40000 or so rounds later, turns out right back on expected.

I don't get your "easily betting full-kelly" stuff as if betting over 1% of roll necessarily means that.

No big deal Dopple - wish you the best. It's your money and you bet it any way you want in any game you choose using any counting system you want with however many indices you choose to use at whatever pen level, whether back-counting, wonging-out or playing-all and whether "spreading" or not.

I happened to have played with a large enough roll that I could withstand
such a large SD (and voodoo stuff helped me too). (and bonus money helped too lol).

If you can't go back to your room tomorrow after playing one round, in any way you choose to play it, and not know what to expect from it, from both a risk and ev point of view, don't play.

Don't worry about it - I'm such a goof ball that I have no idea of what it is like playing a hand without at least the illusion I "knew" what to expect from it.

What's it like?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#12
The Kiss of Death

I stopped computing my Risk of Ruin when it was clear that i was FAR under 1%. These days I bet green in spite of having a 6 figure cash bankroll.
I am too old and financially secure to focus on winning large sums.

R.O.R. is a crucial concept as it is important to understand it so that you do not overbet. Overbetting is the "Kiss of Death"

I had severely overbet early on in my career.

As a result I had enormous swings where (during one year) I had been at a point where my bankroll had grown from $25K to $310K and then dropped back to where, by years end, I had lost back 90%+ of my profits. I could have been "in the hole." I learned to "resize my bets", as we say.

I was actually betting 5 figure sums at one point, but that is not something that i am proud of. That was way too stressful - but at the time I had made so much money that it was intoxicating. I thought that I could walk on water. A rude awakening awaited me.
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#14
FLASH1296 said:
I stopped computing my Risk of Ruin when it was clear that i was FAR under 1%. These days I bet green in spite of having a 6 figure cash bankroll.
I am too old and financially secure to focus on winning large sums.

R.O.R. is a crucial concept as it is important to understand it so that you do not overbet. Overbetting is the "Kiss of Death"

I had severely overbet early on in my career.

As a result I had enormous swings where (during one year) I had been at a point where my bankroll had grown from $25K to $310K and then dropped back to where, by years end, I had lost back 90%+ of my profits. I could have been "in the hole." I learned to "resize my bets", as we say.

I was actually betting 5 figure sums at one point, but that is not something that i am proud of. That was way too stressful - but at the time I had made so much money that it was intoxicating. I thought that I could walk on water. A rude awakening awaited me.
Hopefully you continue sharing stories such as this Flash as they are always eye opening as well as entertaining. I've had my first big rude awakening this past month and am definately becoming a smarter and better player because of it. Hopefully more people will heed your advice and learn through your hard way and not their own.
 

prankster

Well-Known Member
#15
Read what Ian Andersen says about the importance and effect of pen in Breaking The Tables in Las Vegas. His statements regarding pen are as clear and to the point as any I've ever read.:joker:
 
#16
Biggest Winner With Deeper Penetration

The biggest winner with deeper penetration is the casino. The more cards a casino deals the more they make.:joker::whip:

Don't know why they don't know this; of course they miss a lot of things, hence the financial mess many are in.
 

Billy C1

Well-Known Member
#17
Yes and No

blackjack avenger said:
The biggest winner with deeper penetration is the casino. The more cards a casino deals the more they make.:joker::whip:

True if they're dealing to tables full of ploppies. Not true if they're dealing to tables full of APs!
 
#18
Billy C1 said:
blackjack avenger said:
The biggest winner with deeper penetration is the casino. The more cards a casino deals the more they make.:joker::whip:

True if they're dealing to tables full of ploppies. Not true if they're dealing to tables full of APs!
This happens how often? Casinos make money dealing cards, they should do more of it!:joker::whip:
 
#19
FLASH1296 said:
Deep Pen' is the prime characteristic of a profitable game.

A bad game with deep pen is preferably to a game with great rules and shallow pen'
This is why I've recently enjoyed heads up 6:5 games cut well into the deck. None of the computer sims I've seen the nay sayers (here) run have illustrated the favorable edge in this game. Not one!

If I'm getting to the last 15 cards in single deck I will see +10 true counts happening quite often. A lot more desirable than back counting a six deck shoe with six turkeys taking up the best cards. Even with back counting techniques.
 

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#20
AnIrishmannot2brite said:
None of the computer sims I've seen the nay sayers (here) run have illustrated the favorable edge in this game. Not one!
Could computer sims be run that take into account deep penetration and large spread on a 6:5 single deck game? You think they would show them as being profitable? I wonder what the penetration/spread threshold is at which a 6:5 game can be considered profitable.
 
Top