heads up 1 h vs. 2 hands

#1
i've always been under the impression that when playing heads up, it is best to play one hand. however, when i run it on cvcx with the heads up sim (s17, das, nrsa, ls incase it matters) playing a spread of 25-300 for one hand shows a win rate of $75/hr, 4% risk, and a score of 45. when i run it with 2 hands at tc of 1 and a spread of 25 to 2x200, it shows a win rate of $100/hr, 2.5% risk, and a score of 67. According to this, it's better for me to spread to 2 even when heads up. anyone have any insight to this?

Fyi pen's set a 80% and i do not have backcounting/wonging enabled for this
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#2
KingHenry said:
i've always been under the impression that when playing heads up, it is best to play one hand. however, when i run it on cvcx with the heads up sim (s17, das, nrsa, ls incase it matters) playing a spread of 25-300 for one hand shows a win rate of $75/hr, 4% risk, and a score of 45. when i run it with 2 hands at tc of 1 and a spread of 25 to 2x200, it shows a win rate of $100/hr, 2.5% risk, and a score of 67. According to this, it's better for me to spread to 2 even when heads up. anyone have any insight to this?

Fyi pen's set a 80% and i do not have backcounting/wonging enabled for this
Well, yes, your win rate is going to be directly related to how much you have on the table during your top bet opportunities. The 2 hand total of $400 (2x200) is 33% greater than your single hand total of $300 so you would expect your win rate to be roughly 1/3 higher which it is.

There are other factors when making this decisions that you may want to consider. One being that in some locations, Las Vegas being one of them, spreading to 2 hands is a big heat draw. Other places it is not such a big deal. Notice the term 'spreading' not playing. Some players have chosen to play 2 hands off the top in these finicky locations rather than spread. Maybe even drop to one at times.
 
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#3
that makes sense regarding the win rate. i feel like ive heard people advocate that you want to play 1 hand heads up though in order to play more hands at the favorable count, but it seems according to the sim i'm better off spreading to 2. if heat for spreading to 2 isn't a significant concern in my area (ramping up to 300 for 1h would draw the same level of heat at the stores), then is there anything else i need to consider for this comparison?
 

Bondy3

Well-Known Member
#4
2h also allows you to play more hands, and therefor lowers your risk, but it can slow down the game because it takes longer to play 2 hands than 1,

I prefer to play 2 hands, but dont bounce back and fourth, boucing back and forth brings on the :flame:
 
#5
The answer, simply is that your sims are off in comparison. IF you properly optimize your spread and ramp for 1hand vs 1-2hands based on the count and 2hands only approaches, when playing heads up, the 1hand only protocal will trump the 1-2hands and 2hands only approaches. A third scenario to consider is the consolidation approach: 2-3 hands in -EV counts and 1hand in +EV counts, which may trump the 1hand only scheme. zg
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
#6
KingHenry said:
i've always been under the impression that when playing heads up, it is best to play one hand. however, when i run it on cvcx with the heads up sim (s17, das, nrsa, ls incase it matters) playing a spread of 25-300 for one hand shows a win rate of $75/hr, 4% risk, and a score of 45. when i run it with 2 hands at tc of 1 and a spread of 25 to 2x200, it shows a win rate of $100/hr, 2.5% risk, and a score of 67. According to this, it's better for me to spread to 2 even when heads up. anyone have any insight to this?

Fyi pen's set a 80% and i do not have backcounting/wonging enabled for this
Hands per hour. 100 hands per hour playing two hands is much greater action than 100 hands per hour playing one hand. Two hands is always best whenever you have the advantage regardless of whether heads up or not. There are certain reasons not dependent on the count or card eating that makes two hands superior in + EV situations when heads up (for example you want to blow through the positive shoes as quickly as possible and two hands is faster than one hand) Spot spreading on shoes does not generate heat like it does on pitch games and you can always start with 2 spots, drop to 1 spot and then move back to 2 spots.
 
#7
I'm not a seasoned vet like some of the posters on this forum, but I would recommend if you are switching back and fourth between 1 and 2 hands and it looks normal(IE you're not bringing heat), make sure to take into consideration the penetration and it's cutoff so if the end of the shoe or deck/s is nearing(at the start of the deal, you know roughly 2 cards left until the shuffle), you can adjust to 2(or 3 hands if you wanted) on a positive count. Conversely, if the count was negative, you would make sure to drop to 1 hand if it was the last hand to be dealt.
 
#8
KingHenry said:
i've always been under the impression that when playing heads up, it is best to play one hand. however, when i run it on cvcx with the heads up sim (s17, das, nrsa, ls incase it matters) playing a spread of 25-300 for one hand shows a win rate of $75/hr, 4% risk, and a score of 45. when i run it with 2 hands at tc of 1 and a spread of 25 to 2x200, it shows a win rate of $100/hr, 2.5% risk, and a score of 67. According to this, it's better for me to spread to 2 even when heads up. anyone have any insight to this?

Fyi pen's set a 80% and i do not have backcounting/wonging enabled for this
By doing that your putting in play and sacrificing an extra, of the top of my head, about 15-20k on the table for an extra $25 an hour e.v. But the likely case is that you will fall within your standard deviation before e.v. , 2/3's of the time. The risk benefit ratio is crazy the risk being not only the pit but the eye in the sky sweating the hell out of you. The benefit being $25. ??? I think it speaks for itself. I personally would keep only playing one hand. Now you could... hit that high end of the standard deviation of about 10-14k for spreading 2 hands $25-300 not sure on the numbers but would that ultimately be good for long-term play. ??? I think not. Greed is greed and that is the one thing a casino will not tolerate... IDK you could be playing at a casino that don't give a truck. I have two of them in my pocket.

Now, this might just be me but again, I would stick to the one hand.
 
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#9
Also if you actually have a store with 80% pen on double deck and you arnt just simming to sim... I would keep the one hand and take up shuffle tracking. It will give you about the same edge and you can sacrifice playing hands wrong for added cover.

Or you could just shuffle track and spread to 2 hands and flat bet until your slugs come into play and get double the expect e.v. Atleast I think so???? Anybody....

There are so many ways to play each and every game with rule variations sometimes it is just better to play the basics. :confused::confused:
 
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#10
bigplayer said:
Spot spreading on shoes does not generate heat like it does on pitch games and you can always start with 2 spots, drop to 1 spot and then move back to 2 spots.
I can not do that where I frequent. All but 1 dd game is no mid-deck entry. It is also dealt face up. But to get back to my point. I am not aware of any DD games that allow you to start with 2 hands drop to 1 then pick up 2 again that has no mid-deck entry. I always get backed off when trying that. Which is about 20-30 times a trip. I always hope they let me do it
 
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#11
to specify, the games are 6d that i play and ran the sims on. i understand the issues with heat, and believe me, if i had those rules on a dd i'd be playing it a lot more delicately. shuffle tracking isn't really an option besides for the occasional opportunity when certain things aren't working, and then for anyone with any ST knowledge it's a very simple shuffle (they split the decks-then mixed the two using equal sized 2/3 deck grabs only once through).

however my questions more focused on whether or not i should continue to only play one hand spreading to 300 instead of spreading to 2x200 if both draw equal heat. i feel i've always adhered to the rule that one hand during heads up is better so you can play more hands, but in terms of the sim's win rate/ror/Score, it looks like it is favorable to play the 2x200 - assuming heat will be roughly the same playing 25- 1x300 and 25-2x200 (and i'm looking to ignore the heat for the sake of discussion).

ZG - i'm assuming the CVCX already optimized my bet spreads and as the ror is already higher with a lower win rate for the 1h, i'm guessing that there isn't anything i could change to the betting ramp that would decrease the ror while increasing the win rate on the 1xh. i can understand how it is beneficial to use more high cards during negative counts, but if i play mulitple hands without lowering my min. bet - say 2 or 3 hands - then i am effectively placing more money out with negative ev because i will be betting 2 or 3 x 25 as opposed to 1 x25. sorry if i'm being thickheaded - just wondering if the whole play 1xh heads up notion is a myth and maybe good advice heat wise at some places, but not based on Score.
 

PierceNation

Well-Known Member
#12
KingHenry said:
I can understand how it is beneficial to use more high cards during negative counts, but if i play mulitple hands without lowering my min. bet - say 2 or 3 hands - then i am effectively placing more money out with negative ev because i will be betting 2 or 3 x 25 as opposed to 1 x25.
You could drop to a 10 minimum and use this ploy confidently.

In regards to the whole multiple hands, think of it like this. YES you will have more money out, but you will use up more hands in that positive count, meaning over the length of the shoe, you actually place LESS money into the high count.

By playing 1 x $200, you are betting $200 per hand.

By playing 2 Hands, you will bet 2 x $150, playing $150 per hand, thus cutting your EV on those hands by 25%.
 
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#13
dDo you get more hands in?

Obviously not (2.7 cards per hand average including dealer, 1 hand => 5.4 cards /round*1round/hand = 5.4 cards/playerhand, 2 hands => 8.1 cards/round*1round/2hands = 4.05 cards/playerhand). You hope if the TC is going to fall (A fallacy) you get more rounds at the big count. This allows you to play against more upcards/hand. That may or may not be beneficial. By playing more hands in a bad count at as low a bet as you can you eat through those bad counts with the least money possible and with lower variance. Playing 3 hands at 10 each will eat more cards and cost less per round than playing 2 hands at 15 each or 1 hand at 30. In a negative expectation situation lower variance is always good.
 
#14
tthree said:
Playing 3 hands at 10 each will eat more cards and cost less per round than playing 2 hands at 15 each or 1 hand at 30. In a negative expectation situation lower variance is always good.

How can you play 3 hands at ten each. Where ever I have pllayed, again except at Ballys Tunica local, If your playing at a 10 minimum table you... 1 hand $10, 2 hands $20 each, 3 hands $30 sometimes $40...

Would love to know what town has regular games like that? I could kill :)
 
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#15
KingHenry said:
ZG - i'm assuming the CVCX already optimized my bet spreads and as the ror is already higher with a lower win rate for the 1h, i'm guessing that there isn't anything i could change to the betting ramp that would decrease the ror while increasing the win rate on the 1xh. i can understand how it is beneficial to use more high cards during negative counts, but if i play mulitple hands without lowering my min. bet - say 2 or 3 hands - then i am effectively placing more money out with negative ev because i will be betting 2 or 3 x 25 as opposed to 1 x25. sorry if i'm being thickheaded - just wondering if the whole play 1xh heads up notion is a myth and maybe good advice heat wise at some places, but not based on Score.
Yes - 3x25 as minimum increases the RoR, and the comps as well I might add, but the RoR increse is equivalent to $40 min and the single-hand top-bet would need not be increased.

As to the heads-up 1hand theory - I go with BJA and Schlessinger, but maybe BP or QFIT have a different spin? zg
 

bj21abc

Well-Known Member
#16
Looking at the numbers only does not tell the whole story - as you are assuming 100 rph with both 1h and 2h, which is not correct. More hands are being played per round, more payoffs etc.
Although this difference may be minor, best to check it by timing your play for 1h and 2h, to understand the difference in rph - then you can compare apples to apples.

Also, you seem to have simmed 1x25 going up to 2x25 at TC=1 - this implies a higher spread for 2h (lower min bet). Better to sim 2x25 at all times - unless the store you are playing does not care about you spreading to 2 hands at plus counts (unusual...).

One final "fine" point is that you will use slightly fewer cards per hand playing 1h.
If you get BJ - or bust - on 1h, dealer will not play his hand through. On 2h, however, is it less likely that you get 2 BJs, or 2 busts, or one of each - meaning that the dealer will usually have to play his hand through. This is a (small) extra advantage - your high TC segments may last slightly longer.

D.

KingHenry said:
i've always been under the impression that when playing heads up, it is best to play one hand. however, when i run it on cvcx with the heads up sim (s17, das, nrsa, ls incase it matters) playing a spread of 25-300 for one hand shows a win rate of $75/hr, 4% risk, and a score of 45. when i run it with 2 hands at tc of 1 and a spread of 25 to 2x200, it shows a win rate of $100/hr, 2.5% risk, and a score of 67. According to this, it's better for me to spread to 2 even when heads up. anyone have any insight to this?

Fyi pen's set a 80% and i do not have backcounting/wonging enabled for this
 
#17
ringlejames said:
How can you play 3 hands at ten each. Where ever I have pllayed, again except at Ballys Tunica local, If your playing at a 10 minimum table you... 1 hand $10, 2 hands $20 each, 3 hands $30 sometimes $40...

Would love to know what town has regular games like that? I could kill :)
I have only played in one casino that I remember being asked to increase my min bet for multiple hands. Maybe that is a pitch game thing. No decent pitch games in my area.
 
#18
tthree said:
I have only played in one casino that I remember being asked to increase my min bet for multiple hands. Maybe that is a pitch game thing. No decent pitch games in my area.
My experience has been quite the opposite. Very rarely can I spread to two hands with min bet on each. I usually try the first time I am in a positive count. When they correct me and ask for a 2x-min bet on each, I gladly oblige :-D

SB
 

bj21abc

Well-Known Member
#19
Many pitch games work like that - 2 x min on two spots. On 6D they do that in some places, but it is much more loosely applied and PB usually waives it.

Also, it seems to be much more common at mins lower than $25 - I cannot remember seeing that rule on a $25 min table.

tthree said:
I have only played in one casino that I remember being asked to increase my min bet for multiple hands. Maybe that is a pitch game thing. No decent pitch games in my area.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#20

The crucial factor (at DD tables) for fending off heat is to never go

from ONE spot to TWO spots in advantageous situations. Begin with

TWO (or more) spots and will drop to ONE spot as needed, but not return

to TWO spots until the shuffle.
 
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