Blackjack for income?

#1
To start, I am new to Blackjack. I have been playing online for practice at InterCasino (let me know if theres anything i should know about them) and have been using the BS method. I never vary my bet (except in DD situations) and have been sucessful thus far. But the more I play the more I begin to wonder whether I can use this skill as a means of supplementing/increasing some income. Naturally, I had a few questions and began by researching this prospect at my local bookstores and online. I must say your site has been a valuable resource and will be among all of my recommendations when asked. A couple things that I haven't yet been completely clear on are troubling me.

First - Taxes. The IRS. Uncle Sam. You know, 'The Good Guys'. If I am to begin making an income by gambling there are certain procedures that I plan on following and am glad to as part of the 'work' that will be required. These include accurate tracking of bets, hours played, money management, etc. My concern stems from a desire not to get suprised at the end of the year when I discover that I've grossed 35K, and havent saved enough of that for tax purposes. I'm sure this topic alone could spawn thread upon thread of information and im not against exploring that in length in the future, but for right now I'm more interested to hear from the players with experience in this area as to what a good tax procedure I should consider maintaining in order to play for income 'by the book'.

whew....

Second - I understand that Card Counting would increase your odds but I am looking to start without that since I obviously want to aquire a deep understanding of the game, as I know that such an understanding is a great base for future improvement. I also don't relish the thought of the worry that comes with that particular territory just yet. My question here is, 1 - Isn't card counting considered 'illegal' in Vegas, but according to the court it is 'ok' in AC, or do I have that altogether wrong. Some clarification into the risks of playing using CC would be appreciated. I know InterCasino schuffles the deck after every hand making CC worthless, but that brings me to my next question.

Third - I would more enjoy the prospect of playing for income in an online environment rather than going to Vegas or AC because of the advantages offered by the lifestyle associated with it. (i.e. no travel, no smoking, closeness to other responsibilities) There doesn't seem to be any reasoning I can find that suggests that playing online vs casino play has any effect on playing with BS, which I intend to do unless otherwise convinced. Am I correct here?

Fourth - A basic issue, that I need clarification on. Using BS on the game I am playing (8-decks, re-schuffle after each hand, Dealer stands on all 17s, Doubling after Splitting allowed, No re-Splitting, No Surrender,
 
#2
oops, wrong button....

sorry about that. I accidently hit submit. :eek:

anyway, as I was saying....

Fourth - A basic issue, that I need clarification on. Using BS on the game I am playing (8-decks, re-schuffle after each hand, Dealer stands on all 17s, Doubling after Splitting allowed, No re-Splitting, No Surrender, and only one card allowed after Splitting Aces) I should expect a 0.47% house advantage.
Correct? So I am correct in my assumption that the more i play the more I expose myself to that advantage. My issue is how I should structure my bankroll, session limit, and when i should consider multiple losses as a protracted losing streak. Step away when you're up and never bet more than your limit is what i've heard. Ive also heard advice that says have a bankroll of 400x your standard bet and play in sessions of 50x your bet. But in the end does it really matter? i've heard of people using systems that make $15-$17 an hour and just playing using time as a measurement. I am confused by these seemingly condraticting circumstances. Maybe clarification is impossible and I know I am not yet prepared to play for real, but before I do I'd like to understand this better. I plan to break down my income based on $/hr won when I keep records, but what should my play focus on.

and finially... Fifth - So many books so little time.... I'd prefer not to buy every blackjack book in existence, but I will of thats what it takes to win much more than that investment. Can anyone point in the direction of 2 or 3 essential books on the BS system or Blackjack on a whole? I haven't yet spent a dime on Blackjack and would like to better my odds at all stages, even the literary component.

In summary, I am looking to make this a longterm profitable venture that will be worth the investment in time. Realizing thats a subjective statement, I would like to improve my skills to the point where I can make a meager/moderate income so I can exist without the daily grind of an office job. My feeling is that this isnt easy and therefore isn't widely done, but I am willing to exert the discipline and control, weather the ups and downs, and generally do what it takes.

Thanks for your patience and any advice you may have. Be brutally honest, its the only way I'll learn.
 
#3
you've got to learn to count...

well, the first thing you should realize is it is impossible to beat blackjack without card counting... no matter what anyone tells you, whether it be progression betting or stop-losses/winnings, unless you’re able to put odds into your favor you will lose over time. So, that means you must go to a brick and mortar casino and count there.

Secondly as for books, I would suggest Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong for an overall and in depth look into card counting. Or if you’re looking for something more simple go with KO blackjack (although I personally haven’t read that myself).

If you have any more questions ask away I’m sure myself, and the others (KenSmith especially) will be more than happy to help out!
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#4
A few thoughts

A few thoughts on your questions, in no particular order:

If you want to make money in conventional ways playing blackjack, you'll need to be playing at a land based casino, and at a table where they do not use CSMs (continuous shuffle machines).

You seem to understand that you're playing against a house edge at Intercasino, but you don't seem to grasp the importance of that fact. The longer you play, the more certain you'll be a net loser. On a side note, (Dead link: http://bh3.net/l.php/722) _Intercasino_ actually does have a game where card counting can work.

In their multi-player game, they deal 2 decks out of 8 between shuffles. It's about as poor a condition for card-counting as you'll find anywhere, but it's still better than shuffling every hand. I don't recommend anyone approach that game for profit without understanding the EV and variance involved. It's a risky game, requiring very large bet spreads to get a very small edge. One hint: If there is noone else at the table, you can leave and cause a reshuffle.

Book recommendations: I'll agree with hiimdoug on both counts. Wong's Professional Blackjack is an excellent place to start. KO is a powerful and simple system, and is a good way to get into counting. I'll add a new title to the mix. Kevin Blackwood's new Play Blackjack Like the Pros is a new and outstanding addition to the literature. All three are available here.

Taxes: Paying taxes on gambling winnings is in many ways no different than any other self-employment situation. You need to have a good idea of what your potential profit for the year is, and plan throughout the year to set aside some of your earnings to pay Uncle Sam his part.

Gambling does present its own set of tax difficulties. Unless you file Schedule C as a professional gambler, your total wins must be reported on the front page of your taxes while the offsetting losses must be reported as a line item on your itemized deductions. If you do not itemize, this is a huge burden. Marissa Chien and Jean Scott have published a very useful guide to gambling and taxes: (Dead link: http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/productdetail.cfm?AffiliateID=2004027375&itemnumber=1337) _Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler_. The link takes you to the store at Huntington Press, the publisher.
 
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#5
It might be just me, but from the way I've read your post your making it sound like it's easy to win. If I discovered i grossed 35K I think I'd be rather happy, not worrying about taxes.
Anyways as stated above it can be done but not without counting, which still doesnt make it easy.
 
#6
yeah, good point SeeC... if you plan on accumulating an extra $35,000 to supplement your income, and assuming you start with a $3,000 bankroll, you’re looking at about 1,000 hours of play assuming you spend none of the winnings, and you also put your winnings back into your bankroll allowing yourself to have a higher bet spread. This is also under optimum conditions.

guess i missed this part in his original post...

Be brutally honest, its the only way I'll learn.
 
#7
KenSmith said:
A few thoughts on your questions, in no particular order:

If you want to make money in conventional ways playing blackjack, you'll need to be playing at a land based casino, and at a table where they do not use CSMs (continuous shuffle machines).
You say 'in conventional ways', and I'm curious what you mean by that. What unconventional ways are there to make money playing blackjack? (And is single-deck blackjack not a way to make money, despite the player advantage? Or is this considered an unconventional way?)
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#8
Less conventional ways of making money at blackjack would include hole-carding where you catch a glimpse of the dealer's hole card, or exploiting the occasional rumored vulnerability in the shuffling machine. There are others, probably including some I'm unaware of.

As for single deck games, it is rare to find a game that has a player advantage for basic strategy. There's one online, but speed of the game and maximum monthly withdrawal limits keep it from being your personal ATM. Land-based, there was a single deck dealt at the Horseshoe casino in Shreveport, LA which gave the basic strategy player a small advantage. I haven't looked lately to see if it is still being dealt.
 
#9
KenSmith said:
Land-based, there was a single deck dealt at the Horseshoe casino in Shreveport, LA which gave the basic strategy player a small advantage. I haven't looked lately to see if it is still being dealt.

The Horseshoe still offers one single deck pitch table at $25 minimum and up depending on demand.
 

mdw

Well-Known Member
#11
When I first started using the simulator on this website, it seemed I could play a 6 deck game with the default rules at 10 dollar hands and win about $100 dollars and then quit. I did this for a couple weeks. It seemed I could win $100 any time I wanted. Well, after more weeks of playing, I seem to go down a $100, maybe back to even and then almost get up to about $90.00 and start loosing again. I assume the house odds caught up with me. I am flat betting and using B.S. I am off to vegas the end of the month with my new found skill. After all the practicing, I expect to break even or be down a little bit. If I get up $100 dollars flat betting $10 dollar hands I will know I have done well for that session and should leave same is true if I get down more than a $100. The problem I see is that I don't believe I have yet to have a winning streak. A few loosing streaks are obvious, but I doubt I have won more than 5 hands in a row. I would be interested in some winning streak stories. Just my two cents.
 
#12
thanks for all your input guys!

clearly, i have some preperation to do in order to make this worthwhile.

ive bought Basic and Professional Blackjack books by S. Wong and am looking for KO Blackjack (my bookstore didnt have it)

you've been a big help!

I still have one concern. how to use card counting and get away with it.
anyone have any pointers on books/sites with info on this. clearly im not ready to attemp anything even remotely simple at this stage. but i want to learn.

thanks again!
 

Scorcho

Active Member
#13
well.....

your first major concern is to learn to count and learn to count accuratly, don't worry about cover or anything fancy, buy some software of just use Smith's simulator and practice your butt off, you may want to get Casino Verite Blackjack, it has some great teaching tools and is amazingly in depth. Once you think you have the numbers down cold, you want to hit a very small limit table, say $5, and start practicing there, counting in a casino environment is far different than counting at home, don't worry about critters, they really aren't going to be watching you too closely at that low of a limit. If you want to learn some more nuances about the game, including how to count without getting caught, put a little more money in Mr. Wong's pocket and buy Blackjack Secrets, it's a great book that tells you about cover, disguising, taking advantage of promotions, and the like.
 
#14
Objective...........no one answered your question. Card counting is not illegal. It is just a myth that it is. The reason why people talk about not getting caught is because casino property is private property and if the casino decides they don't like you they can kick you off their property. I wouldn't worry about getting caught. Unless your making big money ALL the time your not someone they are going to watch. If you really want to make some extra money playing BJ you won't be walking out every day with 5k or 10k.

If your looking to supplement your income with BJ you should look at what you make right now per day at your day job. Also to start with your bank roll when you start out may not be that high. Maybe $200. If thats the case then you may want to limit yourself to $100 per day. 5 days a week that's an extra $500 a week. 2k a month. 24k a year. Not bad. But you may not win every time so you may only end up winning lets say 14k by the end of the year.

When it comes to taxes on gambling winnings. You need to realize that when you cash out less then 10k in chips at the casino cage no one blinks an eye. If you cash out for more then 10k they ask for your social security number. Also when you deposit money into your bank account they only ask for your SSO number when you deposit more then 10k in cash. If you deposit a check for more then 10k into your account they don't care. What I'm getting at is that if your making an extra 2k a month I would not worry about paying taxes on that money. Even though yes you should since that would be considered income. Unless your making 10 to 20k a month in winnings it is not really worth the time to figure out your taxes with your winnings.

I hope that helps.
 
#15
Hey, OB, like everyone has stated, do not worry about Card counting as the big illegal hype that Vegas and the other Big Gambling Mecas would like you to believe. Did you know that in Atlantic City, the Casinos cannot bar anyone from using Card Counting. The only laws that relate to casinos and Card counting are that "you cannot use a device to determine the outcome of the cards in play". Some Casinos interpret that as card counting, since your brain can be a device. However, like was stated earlier, Casino, are Private businesses, and they all have the clause, the "right to refuse service". If the Casino, thinks you are a threat than, they will ask you to leave and not come back (worst case senerio). Otherwise, they will not pay much attention, if you are not winning big money every time you come in. Hope that helps.
 
#16
mdw said:
When I first started using the simulator on this website, it seemed I could play a 6 deck game with the default rules at 10 dollar hands and win about $100 dollars and then quit. I did this for a couple weeks. It seemed I could win $100 any time I wanted. Well, after more weeks of playing, I seem to go down a $100, maybe back to even and then almost get up to about $90.00 and start loosing again. I assume the house odds caught up with me. I am flat betting and using B.S. I am off to vegas the end of the month with my new found skill. After all the practicing, I expect to break even or be down a little bit. If I get up $100 dollars flat betting $10 dollar hands I will know I have done well for that session and should leave same is true if I get down more than a $100. The problem I see is that I don't believe I have yet to have a winning streak. A few loosing streaks are obvious, but I doubt I have won more than 5 hands in a row. I would be interested in some winning streak stories. Just my two cents.
Last night, I lost 200 dollars playing 15 a hand in 12 minutes. Went to another table with 100 dollars. They closed the table 6 hours later and I cashed in 1100. Another guy at this table was betting 30 and rasing his bet 30 per hand all night. Decided to flat bet the 30 for a while and won 11 hands in a row. lol. Would have made a ton with his old betting strategy. Point is, winning 100 at $10 per hand is good, but I wouldn't say you need to walk away there. You can do better. I was betting 15 and 20 until I was up about 500 at the table. Then we got on this amazing streak and I got betting up to 30-45. It's easier to do when you know you're way ahead.

Mike
 
#17
mdw said:
When I first started using the simulator on this website, it seemed I could play a 6 deck game with the default rules at 10 dollar hands and win about $100 dollars and then quit. I did this for a couple weeks. It seemed I could win $100 any time I wanted. Well, after more weeks of playing, I seem to go down a $100, maybe back to even and then almost get up to about $90.00 and start loosing again. I assume the house odds caught up with me. I am flat betting and using B.S. I am off to vegas the end of the month with my new found skill. After all the practicing, I expect to break even or be down a little bit. If I get up $100 dollars flat betting $10 dollar hands I will know I have done well for that session and should leave same is true if I get down more than a $100. The problem I see is that I don't believe I have yet to have a winning streak. A few loosing streaks are obvious, but I doubt I have won more than 5 hands in a row. I would be interested in some winning streak stories. Just my two cents.
I'll give you several stories. I've won 20k three different times in Vegas. I did leave Vegas all three times with the 20k. Each time I started with a bank roll of $500. The second and third time I won, it all happened in the span of 30 minutes. This was after sitting for 2 hours both times. The key to winning that type of money or even just half or a quarter of that is not being afraid to play your winnings. Playing $10 hands all night will not get you anywhere. The idea is raising your minumum bet as the night goes on. I started at a $10 dollar table with $200. I made another $200. Then I moved on to a $25 table. At some point my minumum moved from 25 to 50 to 100. It's like going up a staircase. You want to raise your min bet when you can play 6 or 7 or 8 hands at your new min bet. Also I always take advantage of all double downs and splits. The point when my winnings started to grow at a rapid pace was when my min bet was $500 and $1000. The key though is that I was not afraid to drop 5 or 6 grand when I was up 10 grand. I never did drop that much during my win streaks but I was not afraid so I was consistent with my play and my betting. What I have found is that streaks last for a very short amount of time and the key is that your already playing big money so as a result of doubling my minumum bet of $500 I'm making it a $1000 bet. While your doubling your $10 bet to $20. In four winning hands I might have a double and a split with maybe one double involved. With $500 up each time that would equal to around $3500 of profit. While your profit would have been $70. At this point I might up my min bet to $600 or $700. Taking advantage of that short streak. Maybe losing the next hand or two but looking for my next double or split or maybe a blackjack. I can't say this enough but it's all about your min bet. Ofcourse I realize that your not going to go out and play $500 a hand but most of your hands are played at your lowest bet. If your low bet is ten bucks winning a hundred is easy but winning a thousand is not. If your low bet is a hundred bucks winning a thousand is easy. Sitting at a table for 20 hours won't win you $1000 bucks or more.

One thing you need to realize you will never win much playing 10 bucks a hand. You will win 100 bucks but thats about it. The thing is leaving your computer or the website after winning 100 bucks is easy. When your in Vegas it's a whole different story. You'll get to know the people at the table and you'll start having fun. When up your first 100 you won't want to leave even though you know you want to and should. Most people sit at the table for hours on end and get no where. You'll go up and many times. Winning streaks for me have always happened in a very short amount of time. In 5 minutes I've gone up thousands. Did I leave?? No. I was having fun. Then I lost what I had.

The truth is there are two ways to approach blackjack. One way is a money making venture the other is to have fun. Now just because your having fun does not mean you can't win. But it's hard to leave when your having fun. When I go to Vegas to win I go and when I'm up a certain amount I get up and move tables or casinos. Your friends may want to sit for hours at one table. I've played at 10 or 15 tables at 3 or 4 casinos in the span of 1 or 2 hours. 15 minutes of play and I'm up so I leave!

So thats my 2 cents. I should also say that I may have won 20k three times but I have also have lost a lot. I don't want anyone to think that I've figured out Vegas and I never lose. I am no different then anyone else I find it hard to leave the table when I'm up a designated amount.

I sense you seem to be a little frustrated because you were winning and now you seem to be on the downward path. Plus you have not been on any real winning streaks. I don't know what your experience with casino play is but be ready for A LOT of ups and downs. Realize that if you really want to win you have to leave the table when your up.

I hope that all made sense.

Good luck in Vegas!
 

mdw

Well-Known Member
#18
Marc,Thank you for your story and advice. Maybe I am being too cautious in my thinking. If I am lucky enough to get up $200, I will remember your advice. Others might advise to leave while your up and not play away your winnings. Having fun is the key. I am not guite sure I understand your betting scheme completely. Say at a $10 minimum table. I win the first hand. Would you then bet $20 the next hand and so on? If you win you are now up $30 or you loose and are back to your original $200 bankroll. What if the reverse is true and you loose your first hand and then possibly your second? If you loose your first hand are you betting only the minimum on your second hand? There seem to be a lot of different betting schemes. Many recommend just flat betting doubling and splitting when possible. For me that seemed to be the easiest to keep track of. Since everyone should be using BS, the advantage is still to the house for the long run. I have read where since you can't hide from the house advantage flat betting or a particular betting scheme will yield about the same result. We are for sure short run players. It would be exciting to keep risking your winnings until worse case scenario I loose back to my original bankroll. Thanks again.
 
#19
MDW.....I must admit that I am an aggressive better. I usually double on the second bet if I win the first. But when I'm not being agressive I'll stay with my minumum bet until I hit a blackjack or a split or double down. Then after a win with one of those I'll raise my bet, either double or by one chip (10 to 15).

I think you missunderstood me. You should get up from the table when your up. You just need to realize that getting up from a table in Vegas is not the same as getting up from your computer. If your up $200 after sitting for your first 30 minutes are you going to not play for the rest of your trip? When I say for you to play with your winnings. I mean use that money including your bank roll to play maybe with $20 min bets. It's really no different then playing with a bankroll of $200 and playing $10 min bets. 20 hands either way. Also the thing about when to raise your bet....if you win the first hand or lose it and then win or whatever is really a non issue. Thats really up to you and how you feel.

I could see getting up and leaving the casino and going home if your up and the casino is local to where you live. If your up two hundred get up and go to another table or better yet go to another table. Just play small bets and win a hundred or two per casino or per table. The truth is your winnings will yo-yo up and down if you stay at a table for to long. I used to live in Vegas and I've sat at one table for 18 hours straight. My winnings went up and down up and down. The casino wants you to sit at that table for as long as you have money in front of you. Thats why the drinks are free. So the key is to leave as soon as you can. The reason why most vistors don't leave as winners is because what else are you going to do in Vegas. If your up after 30 minutes and you leave the table are you not going to play for the rest of your stay? So what I'm trying to say is leave the table and go to another and start all over. But realize playing 10 dollar bets is not going to win you 1000's of dollars regardless of how long you sit at the table, even with the doubles, splitting and BJ's. The 10 dollar bets will win you 100 or 200. But if you win that 100 or 2 ten times at different tables and casinos then yes you can win 1000's.

I'm just trying to give you the real deal. From what you've written you I don't get the idea you've been to a Vegas style casino. And even if you have Vegas, with casino after casino lining the strip you can't get away from it while your there. Vegas is nothing like playing blackjack on the computer.

Also realize that at the 10 dollar tables your also going to see some people do some real interesting things at the table. Hiting when they shouldn't and not understanding why they shouldn't. People jump in on games sometimes for one or two hands and then leave. It's crazy.


Hopefully you understand more now.

Again Good Luck!
 
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