idiots anonymous

should we be allowed a thread for a blackjackinfocom-team.... if it's ok with Ken?

  • yea

    Votes: 11 84.6%
  • nea

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#2
from previous forum....

Kasi said:
Don't worry about it lol.

If you/anyone want to run a 1-24 spread with $25 min until +1 and same amounts (150 at =>+1, 325 at =>+2, 500 at =>+3, 600 at +4), great. If you can make CVCX floor using a TC calculated by number of cards remaining just to see if we're pretty close, great. If you do just send it to me so as not to bore the heck out of everyone.
............
Definitely a new thread - here or where it really belongs is my only question :grin: ?
i'll give that a shot.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#3
from previous forum....

Kasi said:
......
Thanks for the sim Wise One. I guess I'm in the ballpark more or less with its results - maybe not quite as close as I thought the two would end up. Only thoughts I have, since I think you got the rules right lol, (any chance yours used Late Surender?) is maybe that full deck resolution assumption? All I know is Psim will take a RC +20 with 1.25 decks remaining and get a TC of +16. Not sure if someone using full deck resolution would say there's 1 or 2 decks remaining but looks alot closer to 1 deck remaining so I'll divide by 1 and get a TC +20. Not to mention what effect that might have.

Who cares though - we can use both and measure any results against either or both. If that is the reason for the differences, some people might divide by the nearest half-deck, some quarter deck, some just nearest whole deck anyway. Eventually we'll either go broke or get way ahead anyway lol.

Should we start a new thread here? In CC section maybe?
my sim did not use late surrender. but it was allowing insurance even though i had the sim set for no indices. so i doubt the sim was making insurance bets. not sure though.
i set the sim up to make full deck resolution and floored for figuring TC's.
but yeah thats what i was thinking is we can use both sims or maybe even get another one going if need be.
 
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jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#4
Hey sage,
Before I customized my Min and table Max, I accidentally Bet 2400$, and won. So Im actually 1800$ higher than what I should be.

Should I just keep it or start over?(dont matter)

Also one more thing. Can I display 1/2 decks, insted of full decks in the Discard tray?? 12 instead of 6


Kasi,
The +2+4+6+8 is Just "Double That" of a Level one count. +4+8+12+16 is the same thing for a level 4....etc

Hope I didnt mess you up on the BetSpreads.

Check this out: After 3 shoes Im over 8,000 up. Thats Including the x-tra 1800$ :laugh:

 
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sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#6
jack said:
Hey sage,
Before I customized my Min and table Max, I accidentally Bet 2400$, and won. So Im actually 1800$ higher than what I should be.

Should I just keep it or start over?(dont matter)

Also one more thing. Can I display 1/2 decks, insted of full decks in the Discard tray?? 12 instead of 6
get outta Dodge jj. you need to go back to the voodoo channel with that stuff. :laugh: :whip:
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#7
jack said:
Hey sage,
Before I customized my Min and table Max, I accidentally Bet 2400$, and won. So Im actually 1800$ higher than what I should be.

Should I just keep it or start over?(dont matter)
You should subtract $1800 in winnings since you caught it.

I don't care about number of shoes played per se. I care about number of hands played.

You didn't mess up the bet spread lol. Now it's just a different one making for a slightly different game than the other spread.
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#8
sagefr0g said:
get outta Dodge jj. you need to go back to the voodoo channel with that stuff. :laugh: :whip:
Im not kiddin man, it was crazy:eek: I have over 10,000thsnd graphs to prove it:laugh:


Only thing is, I Unintentionally at the beginning set "Always Start new sessions on program entry" Under File>New sessions.

So now its broken into 3 sessions, opposed to 1 continous one.


I feel I should start fresh from the top, after a few more practice trials. We'll see.
 

k_c

Well-Known Member
#9
One shoe

Had some time to kill because of holiday. Went through 1 shoe using my program with suggested rules/bet ramp and recorded results by hand for heads up play, 80% pen. My computer is slow so it takes longer than I would like, particularly for 6 decks. I guess a logging feature and ability to save practice rounds to a database would be the next thing to add to the program if I ever get to it.

Counting system used was Hi-Lo but any count could be used, balanced or unbalanced. Only 1 bet above 1 unit was encountered and it turned out player won with 10-10 vs dealer's 10-7. A hand like this is 50-50 that player or dealer will win. EVs are for using basic strategy and basic strategy was always used. No insurance was used and there were no instances where insurance should have been taken anyway. The only index plays that came up were for hitting rather than standing in negative count situations and that happened maybe once or twice but basic strategy was used even though the index play called for something different.

Code:
6D, DAS, DOA, split to four hands, one card on aces, no surrender,
80% pen, play all (S17)

$25 until TC+1 is achieved. TC+0.9 is still $25. Then $150 at +1 until 2,
$325 at +3, $500 
at +4 and $600 at +4 or greater.

<1 1 unit
+1 to <+3 6 units
+3 to <+4 13 units
+4 20 units
>+4 24 units

Initial HA .4128%

TC   Actual EV   Bet   Result
0.0  -.4128      1     +2
+0.3 -.1905      1     +1.5
-0.3 -.5426      1     +1
-0.4 -.6063      1     -1
-0.4 -.6181      1     +1
-0.7 -.7470      1     -1
-1.3 -.9983      1     -1
-1.1 -.9706      1     +1
-1.2 -.9863      1     0
-0.8 -.6952      1     +2
-0.8 -.6723      1     -1
-0.2 -.3500      1     0
-0.4 -.5551      1     +1
-0.9 -.7923      1     -1
-0.9 -.8130      1     -2
-0.5 -.3439      1     +1
-1.1 -.7646      1     -1
-0.9 -.6988      1     +2
-1.2 -.8387      1     +1
-1.0 -.7239      1     +1
-1.3 -.8265      1     -1
-0.3 -.1404      1     +2
-0.5 -.4012      1     -1
0.0  -.1951      1     -1
+1.1 +.4048      6     +6
+0.6 +.0531      1     -1
+0.6 +.2738      1     0
-0.6 -.3660      1     +1
0.0  -.0703      1     +1
0.0  -.0253      1     +1
+0.3 +.2485      1     -1
-0.4 -.1664      1     0
-1.1 -.5363      1     -1
-0.8 -.4400      1     -1
-1.6 -.8722      1     -2
-2.1 -1.1372     1     -1
-1.7 -.9598      1     -1
-3.1 -1.6576     1     -1
-3.3 -1.7538     1     +1
-3.9 -2.1087     1     -1
-1.1 -.7430      1     +1
-1.1 -.6559      1     +1.5
-1.8 -.7486      1     0
-1.3 -.6530      1     0
-1.4 -.8120      1     -1
-1.4 -1.1479     1     -1
-0.8 -.8285      1     -1

Total for shoe:  +5 units
k_c
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#10
k_c said:
Had some time to kill because of holiday. Went through 1 shoe using my program with suggested rules/bet ramp and recorded results by hand for heads up play, 80% pen.......
Code:
6D, DAS, DOA, split to four hands, one card on aces, no surrender,
80% pen, play all (S17)
.......
Initial HA .4128%
....
k_c
hey k_c thats cool.
brings up a question about initial HA .
like you get HA = 0.4128%

then here on this site we get 0.44 %
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=s17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ns&peek=yes

on the sim below i get HA = 0.395%
so i'm just wondering what might be some source of the differances? :confused:
 

Attachments

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#11
move'd another post

aslan said:
There's been so much discussion about the rules that I'm no longer sure what they are. I think we'll be playing 6D, DAS, DOA, split to four hands, one card on aces, no surrender, 80% pen, play all. I plan to spread 1 to 10 using a base of $50 and max bet of $500, unless that has changed. I plan to use the betting progression recommended by KO, and I plan to use KO preferred strategy which includes 13 indexes for 6 deck.

How many shoes am I expected to complete? I will be doing this manually so it could take considerable time.
yeah. we'll get it straight.
many shoes as you want.
just the idea is at least we all bet consistent what ever we do.
then we've only got maybe four, five maybe six of us gonna do this.
so if need be that many analysis's can be done. it sure would be nice if some one could make a ko sim for how you describe your game plan. maybe i can find a canned one that is close in CVCX.
edit--- ok aslan. i got two canned ko preferred sims below:
one is 1-24 spread the other 1-10 . i guess they use indices??
hope they help....
 

Attachments

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Kasi

Well-Known Member
#12
Nuts and bolts

Here's the spreadsheet I dreamed up based on the Psim results for our basic game and plan to use for this project. I'm sure it will change over time. Comments, Q's etc welcome.

If you play the above game, or even anything close lol, go down a ways and plug in hands played and it'll tell you where you are compared to EV in a stan dev sort of way.

Basically Psim calcs TC based on exact cards remaining so the more one estimates 2.5 decks remaining or 3.25 remaining, the more you'll be agreeing with what I think the sim did. But estimating whole decks is fine too.

I think this game has a lot of variance so lots of big swings expected lol.

Highlights of game - EV $1.06 per hand, SD $224 per hand, Avg bet $108, EV 0.98%, ROR 1.43%, N0 a mere 44,200 hands away lol. SCORE 22.6.
 

Attachments

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#13
sagefr0g said:
so i'm just wondering what might be some source of the differances? :confused:
I don't know either lol. I don't think the Rules thing here takes into account the effect of splitting to x hands. Could be wrong of course.

And then there's the "cut-card" effect, slightly more unfavorable compared to BS-calced HA, to consider.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#14
sagefr0g said:
yeah. we'll get it straight.
many shoes as you want.
just the idea is at least we all bet consistent what ever we do.
then we've only got maybe four, five maybe six of us gonna do this.
so if need be that many analysis's can be done. it sure would be nice if some one could make a ko sim for how you describe your game plan. maybe i can find a canned one that is close in CVCX.
edit--- ok aslan. i got two canned ko preferred sims below:
one is 1-24 spread the other 1-10 . i guess they use indices??
hope they help....
Nice job Wise One lol.

Aslan, or other KO preferred players if you like the 1-10 spread double the amounts and go 50-500. I think it'll make it more comparable to the Hi-Lo game. Or pick the 1-24 spread if you prefer.

I was trying to do KO in in Psim but I didn't like what I was seeing that much.

I'll just use one or both of Froggy's sims for you on the side and still include in "team" results lol.

I'm hoping the number of players grow over time. Anyone who wants to count and bet for practice and wants to get an idea over time of how their results might stack up to EV. Anyone really. It's just using Hi-Lo playing Basic Strategy with no indexes so basically it's just counting and betting. Keep track of number of hands played and dollars won/lost over those hands. What could be simpler?

If one wants to use indexes, go ahead. Maybe say so when you post results if you want.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#15
Kasi said:
Here's the spreadsheet I dreamed up based on the Psim results for our basic game and plan to use for this project. I'm sure it will change over time. Comments, Q's etc welcome.

.....
very cool! :1st:
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#17
All right Im all set. I got the feel for it now. Re-started my playing sessions as one continous one, instead of individually. Took a sec, to figure this out.

Therefore, my reports should be all cumulative results.

I ended the other sessions, at 239 hadns and a firm 5800+ up(Ill add this amount to my new session logs.)

1 shoe into the new session.
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#18
k_c said:
Had some time to kill because of holiday. Went through 1 shoe using my program with suggested rules/bet ramp and recorded results by hand for heads up play, 80% pen. My computer is slow so it takes longer than I would like, particularly for 6 decks. I guess a logging feature and ability to save practice rounds to a database would be the next thing to add to the program if I ever get to it.

Counting system used was Hi-Lo but any count could be used, balanced or unbalanced. Only 1 bet above 1 unit was encountered and it turned out player won with 10-10 vs dealer's 10-7. A hand like this is 50-50 that player or dealer will win. EVs are for using basic strategy and basic strategy was always used. No insurance was used and there were no instances where insurance should have been taken anyway. The only index plays that came up were for hitting rather than standing in negative count situations and that happened maybe once or twice but basic strategy was used even though the index play called for something different.

Code:
6D, DAS, DOA, split to four hands, one card on aces, no surrender,
80% pen, play all (S17)

$25 until TC+1 is achieved. TC+0.9 is still $25. Then $150 at +1 until 2,
$325 at +3, $500 
at +4 and $600 at +4 or greater.

<1 1 unit
+1 to <+3 6 units
+3 to <+4 13 units
+4 20 units
>+4 24 units

Initial HA .4128%

TC   Actual EV   Bet   Result
0.0  -.4128      1     +2
+0.3 -.1905      1     +1.5
-0.3 -.5426      1     +1
-0.4 -.6063      1     -1
-0.4 -.6181      1     +1
-0.7 -.7470      1     -1
-1.3 -.9983      1     -1
-1.1 -.9706      1     +1
-1.2 -.9863      1     0
-0.8 -.6952      1     +2
-0.8 -.6723      1     -1
-0.2 -.3500      1     0
-0.4 -.5551      1     +1
-0.9 -.7923      1     -1
-0.9 -.8130      1     -2
-0.5 -.3439      1     +1
-1.1 -.7646      1     -1
-0.9 -.6988      1     +2
-1.2 -.8387      1     +1
-1.0 -.7239      1     +1
-1.3 -.8265      1     -1
-0.3 -.1404      1     +2
-0.5 -.4012      1     -1
0.0  -.1951      1     -1
+1.1 +.4048      6     +6
+0.6 +.0531      1     -1
+0.6 +.2738      1     0
-0.6 -.3660      1     +1
0.0  -.0703      1     +1
0.0  -.0253      1     +1
+0.3 +.2485      1     -1
-0.4 -.1664      1     0
-1.1 -.5363      1     -1
-0.8 -.4400      1     -1
-1.6 -.8722      1     -2
-2.1 -1.1372     1     -1
-1.7 -.9598      1     -1
-3.1 -1.6576     1     -1
-3.3 -1.7538     1     +1
-3.9 -2.1087     1     -1
-1.1 -.7430      1     +1
-1.1 -.6559      1     +1.5
-1.8 -.7486      1     0
-1.3 -.6530      1     0
-1.4 -.8120      1     -1
-1.4 -1.1479     1     -1
-0.8 -.8285      1     -1

Total for shoe:  +5 units
k_c
Total for shoe: +5 units

F,A" kc, Lets get'em:laugh: Theres four us so far.

I was going to play just units myself, until I went with cvbj at the last minute
 
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Kasi

Well-Known Member
#20
jack said:
All right Im all set. I got the feel for it now. Re-started my playing sessions as one continous one, instead of individually. Took a sec, to figure this out.

Therefore, my reports should be all cumulative results.

I ended the other sessions, at 239 hadns and a firm 5800+ up(Ill add this amount to my new session logs.)

1 shoe into the new session.
OK - I think lol.

I hope I don't confuse a cumulative reporting with a session reporting lol.

Sometimes it's good to report results of a series of fewer hands just so one can say wow those 500 hands were really crazy lol.

You look at/using my sheet or not? I'm getting somewhat "unusual", but not impossible by any means, results for number of hands played vs dollars won.

You played 239 hands in 3 shoes? 6 shoes?

You using a L2 count? Physical cards or is that a thing of the past? Indexes? Does CVBJ tell you anything like dollars wagered or dollars actually bet at each TC? Blah Blah blah lol.

Hopefully I can lose a little for our team one of these days soon lol.
 
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