Myths in the Movie 21

Guynoire

Well-Known Member
#1
Without giving too much away I thought I’d write a post addressing the myths or misconceptions about card counting in the movie 21. I identified 2 major ones.

1) You have to be a math genius to count cards.

This film gave a pretty good overview of the high low count, which is simple, but still seemed to stress the fact that counting is extremely difficult and only people with incredible mathematical abilities can do it. To be fare I think this myth was created for dramatic effect but would still like to address it. Personally I believe that anyone with a third grade education can learn to count cards, it’s just basic arithmetic, and that the actual act of counting is the easiest part of advantage gambling.

2) Facial recognition software will make counting impossible.

Now I’ve never had any personal experience with this type of thing but from my understanding facial recognition is something that human beings are incredibly good at and that it is extremely difficult for a computer to come anywhere near as close as a human. In order for a computer to recognize a face it has to compare features on a face to its target image. Besides a computer being fooled by things such as partial obscurities, a change of haircut, or wearing glasses, computers also have problems compensating for very basic things such as a change of camera angle. It’s these basic problems that have prevented anyone from creating software that would sort photos in a digital photo library by person in the photo. Sorting photos by the people in them would be a useful tool for digital photo albums and it is a trivial task for a human being to do, but as of yet I haven’t seen any software that can do it.

Does anyone have any knowledge or personal experience with facial recognition software? Is there some truth there or is it completely false? I’m starting to think that most of these myths like the one that card counting is illegal are created just to prevent people from counting cards.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#2
Guynoire said:
Without giving too much away I thought I’d write a post addressing the myths or misconceptions about card counting in the movie 21. ....
one point they seemed to want to stress was that card counting was in no way gambling. just my opinion but i believe that's a myth.
 
#3
Depends

sagefr0g said:
one point they seemed to want to stress was that card counting was in no way gambling. just my opinion but i believe that's a myth.
Sagefrog,

I believe that depends on how strong a game you play and your discipline in
playing BJ.

In my case there is no way I am "gambling". I have to agree with the movie in that area. When the BP started to lose discipline he lost and was at that time "Gambling".

Creeping Panther
 

la_dee_daa

Well-Known Member
#4
you win every time from counting... they kinda gave that vibe.... everyone is now going to think that if you count cards you will win almost every hand.

at least in the move "the last casino" it was a understanding that a card counter could lose at points
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#5
creeping panther said:
Sagefrog,

I believe that depends on how strong a game you play and your discipline in
playing BJ.
In my case there is no way I am "gambling".
i'd love to know your secret you stealthy predatorial cold calculating fearless dark jungle beast. lol
creeping panther said:
I have to agree with the movie in that area. When the BP started to lose discipline he lost and was at that time "Gambling".

Creeping Panther
yeah maybe in that particular scene i'd half agree. i mean yeah steaming is about the worst thing one can do and makes for nothing but pure gambling.
there were other scenes though where Mickey just flat out claims card counting isn't a gamble. pure mythology IMHO. i mean hell even NASA gets it wrong sometimes. the element of risk (uncertainty) is part and pacel of the universe as far as human cognition is able to ascertain. that includes card counting.
it's just in my mind that if a deliberate action involves a risk then it that action is to some degree a gamble.
 

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#6
creeping panther said:
Sagefrog,

I believe that depends on how strong a game you play and your discipline in
playing BJ.

In my case there is no way I am "gambling". I have to agree with the movie in that area. When the BP started to lose discipline he lost and was at that time "Gambling".

Creeping Panther
Card counting is gambling with a strategy. You could still lose all your money, just like anyone else.
 
#7
BIG jim

jimbiggs said:
Card counting is gambling with a strategy. You could still lose all your money, just like anyone else.
That does depend on how much money you have :)

Actually a highly skilled and disciplined AP will win money, and never lose like most others.

I have played with "Machines" just as good in REAL life as Ben or The Proff in the movie 21. In fact some would say I was one of those machines. :grin:

As I have stated earlier, there is much more to AP play and *skillz set* than just counting.

I did like the movie, but I fear it could damage the game ever further than it has already been by careless posting and book writting :whip:

Creeping Panther
 
#8
There was a point in the film when Kate Bosworth mentioned that splitting eights against a ten was a sucker play and Kevin Spacey agreed with her. Can someone explain??
 
#9
Greg

Greg said:
There was a point in the film when Kate Bosworth mentioned that splitting eights against a ten was a sucker play and Kevin Spacey agreed with her. Can someone explain??
As a general rule in a DAS game you would always split 8's, this *can* be affected by the count and a *few* other things. In the movie they talked about the 10 and Ace as up card in that instance.

In a no DAS game there are different strategys and if LS is offered even more tactics to use.

Pick your BJ game and and build your "solid strategy" around that perticular BJ games *option set* that you will be playing or specializing in.

Creeping Panther
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#10
jimbiggs said:
Card counting is gambling with a strategy. You could still lose all your money, just like anyone else.
thank you jbigg. that's the point i was trying to make. and i'd just add that maybe the card counter does perhaps have opportunities for an edge for which he enjoys an advantage cognition-wise over others. and it's a two edged sword for which he can wield that sword against the gamble with both less risk and a higher probability of success if he plays his cards right lol.
it's not all that uncommon to see obviously inexperienced AP wannabe's literally shoveling money into the casino's couferrs thinking that they should be walking away winner since after all card counting isn't gambling. you see them walking away with empty pockets and dejected puzzled looks on their faces as if they had just been cheated out of a sure thing. stories of real genuine AP's abound for which they have suffered as much as up to a year of losing money out of positive EV play.
point being to believe the myth that card counting isn't gambling blinds one to one of the advantages that card counting has. that being the advantage of greater cognition with respect to the truth of the endeavor and the possible attainment of the fruits of that endeavor and the possibility of ruin.
the issue of gambling is the issue that is relegated to the subject of risk of ruin and the statistics of expected value in card counting books. what is glossed over is and quickly handed off to you and then forgotten is the part that you play with regard to those decisions. but really it is of paramount importance the question of how you handle the gamble. that gamble is very real and every fiber in our body and mind tells us how real it is every time we walk into a casino and sit our scared little butts on that stool.
 
#11
Mr. SageFrog

Nice post Sage.

However.....

Discipline and a "BJ Warrior" mentality are essential for a true AP to beat the evil casino. A good example of this is the Movie 300....you PICK your ground and your fight and nothing short of that, AND you PREPARE just as the 300 did, for battle, and you will win. "BJ WARRIORS" (!) give the casino nothing (!) and take all they have!! HUAAAH!!

Creeping Panther
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#12
creeping panther said:
Nice post Sage.

However.....

Discipline and a "BJ Warrior" mentality are essential for a true AP to beat the evil casino. A good example of this is the Movie 300....you PICK your ground and your fight and nothing short of that, AND you PREPARE just as the 300 did, for battle, and you will win. "BJ WARRIORS" (!) give the casino nothing (!) and take all they have!! HUAAAH!!

Creeping Panther
spoken like the true predator on top of the food chain that you are Panther. although even in your bravado (which is undoubtedly well deserved and rewarded) it doesn't go unnoticed that you never the less creep your stealthy fearsom continence amongst your hapless prey. :p
 
#13
Mr. SageFrog

sagefr0g said:
spoken like the true predator on top of the food chain that you are Panther. although even in your bravado (which is undoubtedly well deserved and rewarded) it doesn't go unnoticed that you never the less creep your stealthy fearsom continence amongst your hapless prey. :p
Very Good!! :cool:

Kudo's to you my friend. :)

Creeping Panther
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#14
1. Yeah, they make is seem like you have to be a genius to count.

2. "Don't split 8's against 10s and Aces". Yeah maybe sometimes thats not true, but I feel like that is a very poor thing to put in the movie and get in people's heads.

3. Did anyone notice how often they had TCs of 13-17? And the only time they lost was when he "lost control"? Hmm.....
 

godeem23

Well-Known Member
#15
Dyepaintball12 said:
1. Yeah, they make is seem like you have to be a genius to count.

2. "Don't split 8's against 10s and Aces". Yeah maybe sometimes thats not true, but I feel like that is a very poor thing to put in the movie and get in people's heads.

3. Did anyone notice how often they had TCs of 13-17? And the only time they lost was when he "lost control"? Hmm.....
Yeah! I noticed that too. Every single table was "hot." And just like you said, they won every hand except when Ben stopped following the system. Totally unrealistic; but remember, it's only a movie.
 

vonQuux

Well-Known Member
#16
sagefr0g said:
one point they seemed to want to stress was that card counting was in no way gambling. just my opinion but i believe that's a myth.
I see your point but ...look at it from the other direction -- is the "house" gambling? No, because of three things; advantage, bankroll and time.

So I guess I'd say I agree with that assessment (counting != gambling) but only if the word "correctly" is inserted. =)

vQ
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#17
vonQuux said:
I see your point but ...look at it from the other direction -- is the "house" gambling? No, because of three things; advantage, bankroll and time.

So I guess I'd say I agree with that assessment (counting != gambling) but only if the word "correctly" is inserted. =)

vQ
good point. i sure don't know if the house even has a risk of ruin. if they do i should imagine that it is incredibly small. maybe it gets a bit larger when i walk in the door. lol . all kidding aside they do seem to have some concerns. cheating players, thieving dealers, payout errors, payrolls, debt, building maintenance, taxes, business slow downs, maybe a certain breed of incredibly lucky whale and advantage players and what ever else lol. but if the house was just a blackjack table with a huge bank and with an honest dealer and ploppies i'd say their risk of ruin if there is one would be infinatesmal or non-existant. just guessing.
entropy will probably get them sooner or later lol. but your point is well taken and for all practical purposes the gamble for the AP (correct AP) is a matter of degree.
 

rogue1

Well-Known Member
#18
It does kill me how the movie and most everyone else on planet Earth try to make us believe you have to be a genius to count cards! I enjoyed the movie-it was fun to watch and the cast did a fine job.
 

Iggy

New Member
#19
It was a good fun movie, I enjoyed it..
I wish I could find good tables that fast.

I like how he flew his "geeky" friends out to Vegas for the last game

I also like how the teacher reminded everybody that it was
a "business" I used to play with a guy that constantly reminded
me of that.

IGGY
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#20
Guynoire said:
Personally I believe that anyone with a third grade education can learn to count cards,
lol - Last week I was doing a "trick" where my wife's 9 yr old nephew would remove 1 card from a deck and place it face down. He didn't believe me when I had told him I could "memorize" every card in the deck. I told him I wouldn't always know the exact card because, after all it's not that easy, but usually I would. Then he'd turn over the other 51 cards pretty quickly (sometimes I'd have to say whoa lol) and I'd pretend I was memorizing them. I was using the level 3 Uston count. I got lucky twice because the last card was a 5 and then a 9.

When I told him it was a trick and I wasn't really memorizing the cards he wanted to learn how to do it.

After writing out the tags so he could refer to them, and slowly going thru the deck, you'll be glad to know the world now has a very slow 9 year old Uston APC counter lol. He said he would practice and do the trick on a friend. I think so he could look smart lol. Not sure I'd let him bet for me yet lol.

But, yeah, everybody thinks you have to be rainman to count.

I don't know much about facial recognition software - like you say certainly it's less than perfect. I gather it has improved over time. But I guess useful enough to use on people who aren't intentionally trying to disguise themselves like at airports etc.

What I didn't like was that facial recognition software I don't even think actually existed when they actually played. So it was of absolutely no concern to them.

I don't know - I'd say card-counting is illegal in Nevada since they have the right to throw you out on that basis. They view it as a "cheating device" I guess.

But in enlightened New Jersey they chose to view it as a game of skill and if you happen to be a more skillful player by using your brain, that's OK. They can shuffle-up, they can change the betting min and max on you, they can not allow mid-shoe entry etc but they can't arrest you for trespassing because you count.

In the end I guess it amounts to the same thing - if they know you count, it won't do you any good lol.
 
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