Oklahoma Blackjack

#1
I've seen many different posts about oklahoma indian casinos and the state mandatory 50 cent ante. I thought I'd share some of my findings about area Oklahoma casinos.
(I began working in casinos when I turned 18 and worked in gaming until i was 23, and I've had the luxory of meeting many casino managers, pit bosses, dealers, etc, most of whom still work in the gaming industry. If you've ever read Lawrence's chapter regarding bosses and dealers, hes almost 100% correct. Most casino personell do not know a card counter from their arses. Survellience teams are often asked to rewatch tape of blackjack players and are told to rank recurring players based on their play and performance. However as you can imagine, this is a tiresome,boring gruesome job, and most surveillence ppl will often cheat their way through reports.)

SAC & FOX CASINO IN SHAWNEE OKLAHOMA IS BEST IN STATE
They offer excellent penetration, the ante is 25 cent as opposed to the typical 50 cent. Rules are decent, except the dealer hits soft 17. Dealers and bosses aren't too bright. They offer bonus hands for suited blackjacks...Ace-Jack spades, trips 7's, and trips 7's suited. I've found the bonus hands help in recouping the low antes.

KICKAPOO CASINO
Decent penetration, 50 cent ante, dealer hits soft 17...however they offer surrender which comes in handy for 16 and 15 when the count is high. Also here, the staff isn't highly trained at spotting counters. There are two dealers on staff and a manager all whom know i count, but look out for me when I play.

All chickasaw gaming enterprises
(Newcastle, Winstar, Goldsby, casinos in Durant, Ada, Davis and a few others)
Good standard rules, Split up to 4 times, 50 cent ante, dealer stands on all 17's double after splits. They offer bonus hands during slow periods which pay pretty well. I would recommend playing only during these times. The staff at these casinos are much more professional and keep a much closer eye on players. Also at some of these casinos, they use CSM's.

LUCKY STAR CASINO AND FIRELAKE CASINOS
I would avoid, antes, which increase to 1.00 for hands over 100. bad penetration. (and i dont know any people who work at these places)


I've spoken to many different people about the ante, and its apparently a big concern for many players. Up until recently blackjack was illegal in Oklahoma and Oklahoma is working on becoming a full fledged Class III gaming state. Oklahoma has just introduced powerball and scratch off lottery. It's bad for players right now. However, I do feel within time, the antes will be done away with.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#2
We can only Hope!

Oh, I hope so JCollegeGuy. Hope that Oklahoma does away with the ante! Part of the Class II issue involves Video Poker apparently. I've not been able to get a straight answer on that one because I'm not sure even the Casino personel really understand it! I've been told that at some of the OK casinos, they cannot have Video Poker at all. I know it now has to be tied in some way to a networked "bingo" game and do not know how that impacts the Edge.
 
#3
The antes are going to completely keep me away from Oklahoma casinos. Fifty cents a hand adds up quickly. Play 40 hands and you've given $20 away in potential profit. Even with counting, add in the negative side of bj flucuation, and you need a much larger bankroll to support a smaller betting spread. It isn't worth it.

Max
 
#4
Very true madmax, the ante's here are the main reason I've let blackjack take a backseat and focused my attention more on hold em. In my honest opinion, with the antes in place, I feel like I shouldn't be acted upon if my counting is spotted, bc now I'm actually playing an even game.
 
#5
Oklahoma now has several class III slot machines, including video poker. Up until recently, there was a variation of video poker which utilized the "bingo system." IGT were the first ones, I believe, to introduce a class III video poker system. However, I don't believe these machines behaved in the same way a typical video poker machine would.
If they operate in the same manner as other gaming systems such as VGT, WGT and MultiMedia gaming...all games were connected to one or two game servers and were "competing for the winning card." The machine would operate according to it's preset pay out schedule too.
Within the past year, regular video poker machines are common in oklahoma casinos and do not utilize the bingo system. Also, a struggling racetrack was able to obtain class III slot machines such as Double Diamond, Wheel of Fortune, and other IGT games. It is also because of this that I say Oklahoma is working on becoming a full Class III gaming state and that the blackjack antes will hopefully be gone shortly.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#6
Even Game with counting?

JCollegeGuy said:
Very true madmax, the ante's here are the main reason I've let blackjack take a backseat and focused my attention more on hold em. In my honest opinion, with the antes in place, I feel like I shouldn't be acted upon if my counting is spotted, bc now I'm actually playing an even game.
Maybe....IF you are betting high enough to make the ante a low percentage of the bet on each hand. With a $.25 ante and a $5 average bet, you are playing at something like a 5.65% disadvantage and counting will not make up for that. You would need to get up to around $20 per hand to make it work for you in the casinos that do have quarter antes. Most are $.50 though.
 

NDN21

Well-Known Member
#7
Video poker

Remington Park in OKC got some electronic games in late November. The native casinos got their a little bit before then as part of the legislation that allows the lottery. Video poker that is not bingo-based was one of games that Remington Park was allowed to have. The payout is less than the Native casinos that also have video poker. The payout at Remington is 8 for full house and 5 for flush for Double Bonus Video Poker, the game that most experts say you can gain an advantage against. At Remington the payout for Double Bonus does go up to 9-6 when you are betting $1 credits.

The payout on the same game at Lucky Star in Concho is 9 for a fullhouse and 6 for a flush. As of mid-December Lucky Star had 45? (or so the bartender told me) Royal Flushes at the bar which has about 18 GameKing machines, which was about one Royal Flush every 2.7 days. A decent payout. Stay away from Remington Park.

Oklahoma is technically a Class II state but is actually Class II-and-a-half. Many Class III elements are in Oklahoma. Video Poker, Poker, Blackjack although there is that fifty-cent ante), lottery, pari-mutuel gambling, 3 and 4 card poker are in Oklahoma. Bingo continues to be played but it's not as popular as it was before the lottery was passed. The main games that are missing are craps, roulette, sports gambling and slot machines not based on bingo. OKlahoma will be a Class III state within 1.5 years IMO.

Also a player only needs to be 18 or over to legally gamble in Oklahoma.

I play blackjack in Oklahoma. I agree that one must bet larger amounts to offset the fifty-cent ante. I try to employ the wong halves system and it has paid off. I am not proficient enough to keep an exact count at all times. I can usually stay within 1.5 in the running count though and that is enough to know if the cards are in my favor or not and by how much. How much do you guys think that not knowing the exact count hurts me? After all even the most proficient card-counter never has an exact idea of what the count is due to the fact that two-three cards are burned at the beginning of the shoe. I am small-time gambler, betting anywhere from $5 when the count is against me to $99 (the ante increases by fifty cents when you bet $100 or more so I bet one dollar less and save fifty cents) when the true count is 5+. I go about once/twice a month with about $700 each time specifically for blackjack. The fifty-cent ante does not hurt Lucky Star much, their tables are full on Friday-Saturday nights, until 2-3 in the morning, sometimes all night. It is tough to find a place to play on those nights. About half to 2/3 are used during the week and they are usually full.

I do drive by Lucky Star daily and once or twice a week I take $2-10 into the casino and drop it in and see what happens. My brother and several others I know work there and they tell me if someone has pumped alot of money into a machine without winning. I have won several times including a $2400 jackpot on a slot machine, $1000 on Video poker, $500 on Triple Sevens slot machines, $200 3 times on video poker, $100 5 times on video poker as well as many, many smaller prizes. If I can get up just $2-10 I cash out, especially when I play slots. Even if I just win $3 more than I took in I figure that's a couple of sodas at work that I'm not paying for. I have walked out broke many, many times but then it's only $2-10 gone so it's not a big deal.
 

NDN21

Well-Known Member
#9
Oklahoma Bj

It's the only game in town. I also play at Sandia in Albuquerque fairly often, three-four times a year. I win sometimes at the OKlahoma casinos but I do realize that my winnings would be much higher if it weren't for the ante. But it's the only game in town and I cannot travel outside of the state enough to play.

Now I know to stay away from the ante which takes money away from you unnessarily but what about tips to the dealer which also take money away from you unneccessarily. I wait until the end of the session to tip. If I am ahead I tip a couple of dollars and if I am behind I just leave. Doesn't that decrease your edge also?

What about not having an exact running count at all times? I can usually keep on track but sometimes I get off by a card which would put me off by 1.5 at most. How much does that hurt me? Any info would be appreciated.
 

E-town-guy

Well-Known Member
#10
Stop playing!

The ante destroys your edge from counting. You'd be better off playing a game that pays BJ as 6:5. Don't bother trying to make money from those tables, you can't. Especially if you can't keep an accurate count! Why are you struggling trying to use the halves count when you could use a much simpler count such as the hi-lo lite or even simpler, the red seven count. Just because you use a complicated counting system doesn't make you a winner, you have to employ it correctly (and play a game that can be beat).
 
#11
Simple: OK BJ Bad

I also live in Oklahoma, in Norman. You should consider how much money you are giving away, forget about how much you come away with. $.50 a hand * a minimum of 100 hands per session is $50! Put that money toward a trip to Shreveport. That's where I'm going on spring break, and it's because I stayed away from the money pit.

Max
 

tribute

Well-Known Member
#12
JCollegeGuy,
Your post from January 31, first paragraph, mentions a "state mandated 50c ante", then you say the Sac & Fox has a 25c ante. Which is correct? If the state of Oklahoma mandates 50 cents, how can a casino have 25 cents?

Does the 25 cents increase for larger bets?

Also I did a search on Sac & Fox Casino in Shawnee. Information stated the casino is only 8,600 s/f. This sure is a small casino! How many blackjack tables are there?
 
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Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#13
tribute said:
JCollegeGuy,
Your post from January 31, first paragraph, mentions a "state mandated 50c ante", then you say the Sac & Fox has a 25c ante. Which is correct? If the state of Oklahoma mandates 50 cents, how can a casino have 25 cents?

Does the 25 cents increase for larger bets?

Also I did a search on Sac & Fox Casino in Shawnee. Information stated the casino is only 8,600 s/f. This sure is a small casino! How many blackjack tables are there?
Tribute....I can't answer specifics about Sac & Fox in Oklahoma, but your summise about the size of the ante depending on the size of the bet is correct. I'm not sure where the ante increase occurs but most of the OK casinos do have the progressive ante.
 
#14
Each Casino Varies

The $.50 is not state mandated, the ante is. I would say that most of the OK casinos are $.50, but there are some that are $.25. My experience has been that the ante starts progressing after a $100 bet.

Max
 

tribute

Well-Known Member
#15
Oklahoma may be O.K., but Oklahoma blackjack is NOT! I found the worst conditions two days ago while on a short business trip. $.50 ante each hand, dealer burned five cards (one for each player), and three decks were cut off a six deck shoe! The dealer was pulling one miracle hand after the other. There was only one redeeming shoe where I got three blackjacks in a row which paid me a bonus of $100. That was my signal to leave. No more Oklahoma for me!
 
#17
Upon a recent poker session at Sac&Fox, I stepped to the blackjack tables and noticed that they too have upped their antes to 50 cent. No more Oklahoma blackjack for me.

Does anyone know of Kansas City conditions at Ameristar and Harrahs?
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#18
JCollegeGuy said:
Upon a recent poker session at Sac&Fox, I stepped to the blackjack tables and noticed that they too have upped their antes to 50 cent. No more Oklahoma blackjack for me.

Does anyone know of Kansas City conditions at Ameristar and Harrahs?
AmeriStar....
6-Deck...$5 to $500 I believe. H17, DOA, DAS. They do not offer Surrender, allow splits to 4 hands and pay 3:2 on Blackjacks. Pen is good in that they cut off less than 1.5 decks.

2-Deck...$10 to $500, dealt face up out of a shoe and shuffled by Shuffle Master. Split Aces only once, anything else 3 times I think. Double on anything. Dealers hit soft 17's. I don't think you can double after split.

Harrah's is about the same though I've only played their 6-deck.
 
#19
Oklahoma Blackjack Correction

first of all there is no mandate about ante's what so ever in the oklahoma law. it states that a casino cannot profit from the game i.e. the players pool. the casino is allowed %10 of the players pool for operating costs. this is not nearly enough to cover expenses so the casinos have the ante. a casino can have ante free bj, they just won't make anything. there is atleast one casino in the state that doesn't require an ante. I would think at some point a few smaller casino's would move the bj department from a revenue dept. to a support dept. to increase overall revenues in the casino.

second if you pay the ante they could hand card counting calculators out at the door and there is still no way in hell you can beat the game in the long run.
 
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