Should I learn to count heads up first?

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#1
I know this would be the easiest way to start and once I'm fluent add extra players/ hands to the table, but would I be learning a bad habit by starting to count heads up? If so how many players should I learn to count with at the table?
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#2
practice dealing a variety of situations to yourself. The biggest mistake a lot of people make is counting down decks, instead of counting a blackjack game.
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#3
The biggest mistake a lot of people make is counting down decks, instead of counting a blackjack game.
I guess yet again, I have learned a bad habit. When dealing to myself, I clearly won't be able to count 6 or 7 hands at a time even when dealing slow, does 2 or 3 sound ok for starting off at fair speed?
 

StandardDeviant

Well-Known Member
#4
UncrownedKing said:
I guess yet again, I have learned a bad habit...I clearly won't be able to count 6 or 7 hands at a time even when dealing slow
I have found that it doesn't make that much of a difference how many hands are at the table, since the dealer deals to them one at a time. I count two cards at a time, so I will be looking at players 1&2, and then 3&4, etc.

I do find there is a difference when there is an odd v an even number of players when counting two at a time, because if there is an odd number of players, the dealer's card is needed to complete the last pair (e.g., player 3 + dealer).

On my last trip to the casino I found myself doing something a bit different than counting in pairs as described above. I'm not sure I can describe this adequately, but here goes. I would count in "pairs" but across more than two cards at a time. For example:

Player 1 gets a 10 - I think "-1"
Player 2 gets a 9 - I ignore it
Player 3 gets an 8 - I ignore it
Player 4 gets a 2 - I think "1 + -1 = 0, no change to the count"

I find that when I think this way, instead of focusing on Player 1 + Player 2 and then Player 3 + Player 4, the game seems to slow down
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#6
UncrownedKing said:
I know this would be the easiest way to start and once I'm fluent add extra players/ hands to the table, but would I be learning a bad habit by starting to count heads up? If so how many players should I learn to count with at the table?
If you practice just playing heads-up, you may find yourself a little overwhelmed, at first(especially when playing with a fast dealer) with a full table.

Your two card combos, "adding and subtracting" from the RC, gets a little harder as the number of players increase. However, TC caculations, for betting and playing decisions, become somewhat easier, because of the extra amount of time your given before making your decision.

So, while playing heads-up, maybe easier for the actual counting of the cards, its somewhat harder, in the aspect of calculating TCs for betting and playing decisions. Thats probably why, Moo said its best to balance the # of hands.
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#7
So, while playing heads-up, maybe easier for the actual counting of the cards, its somewhat harder, in the aspect of calculating TCs for betting and playing decisions. Thats probably why, Moo said its best to balance the # of hands.
I've been counting on verite with 2-3 players and I'm getting pretty quick with the count. The dealing and animated settings are about 1/4 away from the highest speed, but if I add more hands it gets way overwhelming as you said. I guess I will have to keep pushing myself. "The sky is the limit."

PS: I am using the demo version of verite strictly for counting reasons, not for $$ results. It is the closest I can get to real-time speed, although it is not quite real-time speed.
 

ohbehave

Well-Known Member
#8
Typically a heads up game is significantly faster. You'll need to be better than if there are other players. Other players slow down the game.
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#9
Typically a heads up game is significantly faster. You'll need to be better than if there are other players. Other players slow down the game.
I know, but I can count 3 cards significantly faster than say 9 or 11. Plus (on verite) by the time I have the count after 11 cards, some of the players have already played out their hand(not to mention if the dealer gets BJ I'm screwed as far as the count goes). I am getting pretty quick though. I'm hoping to be able to count and play 7 hands at the same time with little hesitation before I actually test my skills at a casino.

Thanks for the rapid responses and the advice. I wouldn't have started card counting if it weren't for this forum. I can't even begin to express my gratitude.
 
#10
You should learn to count in pairs its much faster because alot of time you will get 2 card which cancel each other out and can skip right over it. Also if you count the cards as they are dropped you should be done by the time first base starts to play his hand, then just count the additional cards which are played. i recomend pair counting or even 3 or 4 cards at a time, that will help you for playing hand held games for when the dealer flips everyones hands over quickly.
 

mathman

Well-Known Member
#11
There is no better way to learn than to play the game exactly like it is played in a casino. Have a friend, spouse or whatever deal you the cards just as it would happen for real. Buy yourself 6 or 8 decks of cards so you can play without shuffling for awhile. Teach yourself to cancel cards out, one high cancels one low. Learn to ignore the neutral cards. Playing from third base is the best way to learn but it is also the seat that attracts the most attention from the pit. You have control over the speed of the game. Take your time making decisions and placing your bets. Leave your payed bets on the table until your decision is made for the next round. The dealer cannot deal until you reset your bets.

When you do finally make it to the real world you need to be relaxed so spend allot of time at home first. If you are too quiet and too focused on the cards, you will be caught. You need to be able to laugh, joke and carry on conversations while you are playing. Look away from the table as if you don't care about the other cards. Combining cards in pairs will help you with this, you should be able to scan the table quickly to get the count. If you lose the count (and you will) play basic strategy until the end of the shoe, this will cost you less compared to guessing at the count. Back count when you can and pretend you are playing a particular spot to help yourself get used to the speed of the game.

Playing in the real world is allot different than playing at home but if you invest the time you will get the hang of it. Do things to complicate your home game, play with the tv on, teach someone else to play or talk on the phone. Teaching someone else to play or talking on the phone are the best way to prepare yourself (in my opinion). Finally learn the count you really want to use, it is difficult for allot of people to learn a new count once they have gotten used to another. Good luck, have fun and relax.
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#12
Thanks for the advice mathman. I like the Zen and am very comfortable with it. I'm getting used to counting say 3 cards at a time, it seems that the Zen values cancel out a lot more often in threes. I will start to learn to count as the cards are being dealt instead of after they are dealt, this seems like the better way to go.
 

UncrownedKing

Well-Known Member
#13
Can anyone tell me if casino verite is sufficient in learning how to count with the real flow a BJ game(I'm just asking about the speed and flow)? It handles the game much faster then when I deal out cards myself and it keeps a count for you to check your accuracy.
 

mathman

Well-Known Member
#14
Yes, sorry about that. I realized after I wrote that I was assuming you were using hi-lo. 10's still cancel 4,5 and 6 but yes you would cancel in 3 quite often also. I'm surprised you are using a 2 level count to begin with. Good for you, now you don't have to re-learn later. Good luck to you..
 
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