Single Deck (Barona)

#1
Barona have single deck game. The table min. is $100.
The rules are: H17, DAS, LS, No Re-split Aces
I check on the wizard of odd and the house advantage for this game is .01%. So, I was wondering if a 20k bankroll is sufficient enough to beat the game with a 1-2 bet spread using the Zen Count, or Hi-Opt II. What is the risk of ruin for such a bet spread? I don't think wonging will work for this kind of game. So, pretty much all negative count, I'll bet 1 unit and 2 units on all positive count. Also, what will be the EV for this game. Thanks again
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#4
Better rules? No. Better conditions? Yes. That 1:2 spread (if you get a second round) isn't going to get you very far. The tiny advantage, huge risk, constant scrutiny, crowded/slow game and easy casino countermeasures makes for a weak opportunity. You could probably do much better at the games on the main floor. It's worth checking out, but don't get your hopes up.

-Sonny-
 
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FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#5
Sonny's words are wise. Heed them. The SD game is an obvious "Card Counter Trap"

If played skillfully, even with just two rounds dealt, (unless "flat-bet"), will result in being backed-off.

I almost never play the best game offered.

It should be blatantly obvious to you that the best games will be constantly scrutinized.

There are 15 DD tables [with improved penetration] H17 DAS LS nm
The game is .33 "off the top" but with LS it is more realistically .25 or better, depending on your spread.

Using a Level Two Count like Hi-Opt II a 6-1 spread will afford you a very good opportunity.

just remember to lay down some cover, like betting 2 units off the top, and do NOT be greedy.

The only drawback is that the game has a $25 minimum.

It would certainly be my choice, but I have the bankroll.
 
#6
thank you sonny. You have a point. They do have a lot of DD games, but when I was there all the dealers that I check out only cut about 50-55% penetration. So, I backcount a shoe game and got murder with a +10 True Count. Lost 100 unit in less than 5 minute. Even when the cut card came out the count was still at +10. Good shoe, but such a bad night.
 
#8
I've played this single deck game a handful of times and I think I'm on the verge of being booted every time. I just live so close to it and I've never had a losing session on it, so it's too tempting to pass up.

I just spread 1-2 or maybe 1-3 and then only bet 1 unit on some of the extreme positive counts. If I lose all my chips, then I play a big bet like I'm pissed off (on good counts of course). By a "big bet" I mean $500 or so.

The problem I have is that after 45 minutes of play I feel like they're coming for me. Talk about anxiety! I'll probably survive one or two more sessions before I get the axe. :cry:

One night I played their 6-deck shoe games and the pit boss picked up the used cards to count them back after I made some big bets. So it's funny, I've had more problems on the 6-deck than the single deck at Barona. That's just my random experience though.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#9
You are indeed " … on the verge of being booted."

The over / under betting line depends on how often you play there and how often you are impetuous enough to slam down $500.

The over under may be as little as 1 or 2 sessions or as many as 8+

You're all but toast at this point. Dead Man Walking.

Your cumulative win actually guarantees that you are approaching the Casino manager's "choke point".

Black chip action and how many successive winning sessions have you had ?

You best play flat betting and lose back some small sums for a few sessions.
 
#10
I refuse to intentionally lose some back. How about getting all my buddies to get players cards and I rotate using them? Anyone tried that move? Anyone know if Barona sees a picture of you when they scan your players card?

I'm not sure how many successive winning sessions I've had now, but it has all been blackjack action and all wins have been over $1,000. FLASH, I'm sure I'm near finished as you suggest. :cry:
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#11
Using the cards of others can sometimes work.
Then again, if caught, you and the card owner are
instantly 86'd.
Some casinos keep physical descriptions of the card holder in their data base.
I have actually seen this e.g. at Seminole Hard Rock Casinos in Florida, although I am not suggesting that many casinos do this.

However, if you have been a regular player, betting black, you certainly can bet (no pun intended) that some of the floor persons KNOW your name / face matchup.

Security will surround your chair and the pit boss or shift manager will tap you on your shoulder, as they read you the trespass act. You will be physically escorted off the property. This is not a badge of honor. It is a dunce cap. Also, this is an Indian casino, so they are free to do as they will without you having legal recourse. Only one of my "trespassings" was on "sovereign land", but it was the most unpleasant with my being detained for hours and the state police being involved.
 

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#12
it's called experience.

FLASH1296 said:
Security will surround your chair and the pit boss or shift manager will tap you on your shoulder, as they read you the trespass act. You will be physically escorted off the property. This is not a badge of honor. It is a dunce cap. Also, this is an Indian casino, so they are free to do as they will without you having legal recourse. Only one of my "trespassings" was on "sovereign land", but it was the most unpleasant with my being detained for hours and the state police being involved.


But .. you really have to have a few episodes of drama to really know where the limits are and what it looks like when you've overstayed your welcome. Problem is.. it's not consistent from store to store or pit to pit for that matter.

BTW Flash... what did you do? Grab some purple and orange from the rack? :laugh:
 
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#13
FLASH1296 said:
Security will surround your chair and the pit boss or shift manager will tap you on your shoulder, as they read you the trespass act. You will be physically escorted off the property. This is not a badge of honor. It is a dunce cap. Also, this is an Indian casino, so they are free to do as they will without you having legal recourse. Only one of my "trespassings" was on "sovereign land", but it was the most unpleasant with my being detained for hours and the state police being involved.
Being detained for hours on an Indian reservation, for just card counting, is kidnapping and can be under the juristiction of the FBI. It can also be a public relations disaster for the tribe if reported in the major media. A barring is also a badge of honor, if it is witnessed by friends and family members, and they may by word of mouth spread the tribe's cowardly behavior and take their business elsewhere.
 
#14
I've been barred from a few places in Las Vegas, but I've always eventually returned to play more. I've never been barred from anywhere that I didn't go back to after some time had passed. The barrings are embarrassing, but sort of funny and I enjoy them to a certain extent (only if I'm winning).

However, Barona seems to be a little different. It's a smaller, more intimate place, and I think it would really stand out if I were barred there. They have a good reputation though and I doubt they would make a big deal out of it. After all, they have the Blackjack Hall of Fame there to glorify legendary card counters!

The thing I don't understand is how an Indian casino can do anything they want with no legal consequences? Seems crazy to me.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#17
JSTAT said:
Being detained for hours on an Indian reservation, for just card counting, is kidnapping and can be under the juristiction of the FBI. It can also be a public relations disaster for the tribe if reported in the major media. A barring is also a badge of honor, if it is witnessed by friends and family members, and they may by word of mouth spread the tribe's cowardly behavior and take their business elsewhere.
So friends and family members take their business elsewhere. How does that help you? I don't see a barring as a badge of honor under any circumstances. It may be a necessity from time to time to figure out the limits that can be pushed, but it iss never a positive thing.

Also "public relations disaster for a casino"? I just don't see that happen often. People just don't care. Ceaser's AC is still full of women even after the stories of surveilance looking down their dresses made local and national headlines.

Also it is my understanding that under the Indians appropriations act, the Tribal council, not local nor federal government have juristiction over reservation land.
 
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Pro21

Well-Known Member
#18
FLASH1296 said:
In effect, there is little difference - once he "has been made"
The big difference is that he won't have to worry about this.

FLASH1296 said:
Also, this is an Indian casino, so they are free to do as they will without you having legal recourse. Only one of my "trespassings" was on "sovereign land", but it was the most unpleasant with my being detained for hours and the state police being involved.
 
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johndoe

Well-Known Member
#19
Indian lands are fully under the scope of all federal laws. This does make it more challenging to bring a lawsuit (can't use state court - must be federal, and you do risk kicking it to tribal), but it's by no means impossible. They aren't entirely sovereign.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#20
There are always a handful of uninformed people who imagine that "Federal Laws" apply and can be enforced on a "sovereign" nation.

"Facts On The Ground", as they are known, quickly dispatch such naive notions.

I wish that I had not lost the photos that i took of the signs at the border of the Akwesasne Mohawk Reservation, in New York State, straddling the U S Canadian border. They inform the F.B.I., the I.R.S., Federal Marshals, military, etc. that they are NOT permitted on the rez'

Back in the mid 1980's, the Governor decided to close down the "illegal" Indian casinos that operated there. The State Police Troopers were met with roadblocks and a good deal of gunfire. Some were wounded. The Attorney General advised the governor, Nelson Rockefeller, that the State Police had NO jurisdiction there unless they received an invitation. The State Police were ordered to retreat. They never returned. They still "illegally" sell cigarettes that are completely tax-free, and as such, are absurdly cheap. Many people risk selling them in their own communities for triple the price or more. It is an open secret that drug smuggling and human smuggling are major industries on this reservation as the Canadian and American customs agents, etc. cannot stop those who simply walk across the border via the reservation. A movie about this garnered two (s) Oscar nominations in 2008. It was called "Frozen River" See:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0978759/

Incidentally, I had an acquaintance who was a businessman in Hartford Connecticut. He was very severely beaten at Foxwoods and was in I.C.U. for two weeks with internal injuries and numerous fractures. He told me how shocking it was when his brother, who was "admitted at the bar" in Connecticut, had to tell him that he had NO recourse whatsoever.
 
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