What you should know if you try to buy BC

apex

Well-Known Member
#1
I have gone back and forth on whether or not to post this. It is probably going to make some big names mad and completely ruin my chance of ever purchasing the book. I will probably also miss out on some good future private chat. Still, I was unhappy with how this went down. It has been a week and I am still upset about it. I wish I would have known more about the situation before I tried to buy the book. So at the expense of my online reputation, for the benefit of those who are considering buying the book, and to settle the situation in my mind so I can move on, here is my take on the BC situation:

As many of you know I have had some questions about advanced methods. Many have recommended the book as a great source of information. My first thought was it was too expensive. Then I found a great game and decided it was certainly worthwhile if I was going to be betting the price of the book per hand in some cases! Anyway, I went to the website. It says to e-mail them to inquire about the book. I sent an e-mail. No response. A couple weeks later I sent a second e-mail. No response. At this point I am wondering if there is something wrong with their e-mail or order fulfillment. I still thought this was a normal product, and that the author would want to sell as many as he could. I thought that he may be interested in knowing that his e-mails were not being answered, and whoever was in charge of that needs to step their game up. A reputable member of this site suggested that I send the author a PM here to see what is up. So I did. The response I got at that time was "I'll look into it."


So from this we learn several things. This is not a normal product that you can just buy. The author is very protective. He doesn't answer his e-mail, and if you send a PM to his private personal account you are imposing. He makes assumptions and is quite condescending to his would-be students.

Now you know. If you decide to try to purchase the book, be patient and polite. Never question the author. Do the best you can to answer whatever questions he asks you. Cross your fingers! You will be evaluated in some way that you don't have much control over, and if you don't cut it you will be talked down to.
 
#2
By George, I think you've got it!
Besides, and I expect ExCAA to disagree, has already fallen into too many casino hands.
Especially the first edition. zg
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#3
There are many people who consider the author of that book to be some sort of a "god". Maybe he's starting to believe it himself. :laugh:

I have to agree with ZG - there's probably not a surveillance person that exists who's not familiar with everything in that book. After all, it's not like he's the one who INVENTED these techniques. Many of them are as old as the casino business itself.

Besides, you're really not missing that much - as for the particular game you're trying to find strategies for; that book is VERY lacking in that area anyway. Your best bet is to find a simulator for that game and figure out the strategies yourself. By using the Google search engine you should be able to find a pretty good one for free.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#5
I hate to say it apex, but it's fairly common knowledge round here that getting ExCAA is no longer as simple as hitting the buy button. The author has referred to being more interested in protecting the information than sales on several occasion. Likely the question involved trying to identify who he heard you were, however whether being the person he thought you were may or may not have been a good thing. TBH posting PMs isn't really a cool thing to be doing and would be frowned apon on most message boards, but that aside i think the author was fairly direct and polite. If you don't like the question you don't like the question, but just like any private enterprise he has the right to refuse custom.

ZG, of course the first edition has slipped the net a few times by this point - 10 years after it's release.

Sucker, at around 700 pages in length, how much more do you really want? The book is designed to aid the reader towards the mindset, not be a processed food, back of packet, step by step cooking guide.

RJT.
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#6
RJT said:
Sucker, at nearly around 700 pages in length, how much more do you really want? The book is designed to aid the reader towards the mindset, not be a processed food, back of packet, step by step cooking guide.
RJT.
This was MY point exactly. Apex is looking for a "step by step cooking guide", and it simply doesn't exist.
 

NightStalker

Well-Known Member
#7
Posting PMs in public is disrespectful

Apex, After reading this, I regret sharing info with you.
No idea, why you posting about BC on this site? While you could have asked your questions to author directly?

Second, Why you/others newbies wants a peice of JG's research. Author is at his own will to share his research. If you don't like his choice/questions, why bother complaining here? Use your own brain, work at your own, answer your questions yourself instead of pleading for book?

Sucker- I am aware of some survi people who works in security/pit at other casino. I am certain that even if they read the book, they would not understand much of it. Do you think they can understand any strategy?

PS: I wish that book has never been published....
 
#8
RJT said:
ZG, of course the first edition has slipped the net a few times by this point - 10 years after it's release.
It was a casino mgmt best-seller in its first year, according to GBC Howard.
More copies probably sold to casino staff than to APs.

Its an enigma why it was ever published for sale in the first place, and that even the latest edition should have sold for even a much higher price so only the most serious practitioner could buy ... and ALL the best casinos, of course.

Why why why??? zg
 

NightStalker

Well-Known Member
#10
Depends

zengrifter said:
I wonder how many "real pros" share your feeling. zg
whom do you consider 'real' Aps? One who like to flaunt or play?
One who have the vision about the game? Or one who like to ride on other's work?

I know several pros was disappointed by kat's book for sp21. There are many who appreciate Kat's book because they cannot do it themselves.. I expect the same if someone publish numbers for bj-switch.
Depends how real 'real pros' are?
 

NightStalker

Well-Known Member
#12
Then I am the wrong person to answer

zengrifter said:
Real PROS. Not wannabes or card counting POSERS like me. zg
Neither I was, nor I want to be a real pro.. I play mainly for entertainment, Sure I make more money than most pros, but money is not the primary purpose I play cards..

Posers like you are far better and experienced than me. You know better :)
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#13
NightStalker said:
I know several pros was disappointed by kat's book for sp21. There are many who appreciate Kat's book because they cannot do it themselves.. I expect the same if someone publish numbers for bj-switch.
There is a big difference between publishing the numbers for a card-counting play, and publishing a move that the casino has a simple and obvious defense against, were they only to know that the weakness EXISTS. Sometimes the FACT that the move is known - immediately burns it out for all time. So who gains from this information, OTHER than the casinos? Certainly not the author of the book, who has just damaged or even destroyed a big chunk of his livelihood. (I guess you COULD count as a gain; the fact that he's impressed his readers with how "clever" he is). :p
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#14
Sucker said:
(I guess you COULD count as a gain; the fact that he's impressed his readers with how "clever" he is). :p
Something tells me that your problem here come down to a personal grievance with the author more than anything else. I'm sure you'll hasten to disagree....

RJT.
 

apex

Well-Known Member
#15
I hate to say it apex, but it's fairly common knowledge round here that getting ExCAA is no longer as simple as hitting the buy button.
This is something I learned in my book buying attempt. Now it is common knowledge to new people. I think people should know this before they attempt to purchase the prodect.

This was MY point exactly. Apex is looking for a "step by step cooking guide", and it simply doesn't exist.
Well, specifically I was looking for a way to check my strategy. A step by step guide would have been nice. Even guidelines would have been helpful. I also wanted to read through it to see if I could learn about things that I didn't know I didn't know.

NightStalker said:
Apex, After reading this, I regret sharing info with you.
No idea, why you posting about BC on this site? While you could have asked your questions to author directly?
I agree PMs are private. Posting that was bad form and I would never do it again. On the other hand, I think authors should be held to higher standards. I think responding "FU" to a potential customer is a bad idea. If I sent an email like that to one of my customers, it is quite likely that it would end up on my google review page. I did respond to the author directly. My response was not answered.


Second, Why you/others newbies wants a peice of JG's research. Author is at his own will to share his research. If you don't like his choice/questions, why bother complaining here? Use your own brain, work at your own, answer your questions yourself instead of pleading for book?
I wanted to buy the book. I thought it was a product you could buy. The purpose of this post is to make sure people don't think it is that simple. I am complaining because I had a bad experience with a product or service. Isn't that what the internet is for?

I have been using my brain, getting pointers from you and others (thank you btw), and have it mostly figured out now. I am not pleading for the book, I just wanted to purchase it at the listed price. In my opinion, if that is not how the transaction works, the product shouldn't be listed as "for sale."

PS: I wish that book has never been published....
Me too! Now that I know the information I wish no one else could ever learn it.
 

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#16
I have cleaned the thread as much as I can. Please note that posting PMs are against forum rules.

APEX, i think Ken has given you the best answer

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=212569&postcount=2

I think you are just being impatient and/or too dependent on others. If you are really serious about the game and can't wait, do your own research, learn how to analyze card games on your own, often times you can get the answer with just a pencil and paper (a big one sometimes), learn how to program, you can ask a friend who is a programmer to give you a hand, or write the entire code for you.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#17
You really need to take a look at what you are saying here apex. Frankly you have no complaint.

You post asking why discussions of certain types of information are being deleted by the mods here as if it's not self explaintory - in my mind that would have been enough to discourage me from sharing anything sensative with you. Then you go further and post private communications between yourself and other members of the board. If i were JG, i wouldn't sell to you - by posting PMs after the fact, you've just validated the concerns i would have had regarding your reliablity.

If you'd done any reading whatsoever on the topic, for example the BC forum, you would have seen fairly quickly that there are plenty of posts on that board requesting information about the current availablity of the book which have gone unanswered. Now in any normal circumstance if i was to find that level of customer service on a product's forum i'd give it up as a bad idea. Given the nature of the information you were trying to obtain however, i don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to draw the conclusion that the author doesn't want to make it easy to get hold of his product any longer. Not to say that it's not available, simply that checks are going to be in place and a degree of persistence and patience is certainly going to be required.

To now come on the board crying simply because you didn't get what you want, it's not particularly useful and certainly isn't going to help your case. Perhaps, rather than stewing on the issue for days at a time you should try and learn a lesson from this experience......

RJT.
 

apex

Well-Known Member
#18
RJT said:
You really need to take a look at what you are saying here apex. Frankly you have no complaint.
My major complaint is that a product is listed as "for sale" but it really isn't, at least not in the normal sense.

You post asking why discussions of certain types of information are being deleted by the mods here as if it's not self explaintory - in my mind that would have been enough to discourage me from sharing anything sensative with you. Then you go further and post private communications between yourself and other members of the board. If i were JG, i wouldn't sell to you - by posting PMs after the fact, you've just validated the concerns i would have had regarding your reliablity.
I posted asking why some subjects are allowed to be discussed, and some arent. I saw what I believe to be logical inconsistencies in the rules. Some agree with me, most don't. I believe it was a worthwhile discussion. It is my right to ask. It is the mods right to delete threads. Since then I have not mentioned the game that isn't allowed to be talked about by name (but again, it is mentioned by name on the BC site by a person who has criticised me for talking about it.)

Yes, I posted a PM. Maybe I shouldn't have done it. I feel that in this case it wasn't really a PM. It was a business inquiry that should have happened through e-mail. No private information was shared. True I validated the author's decision about me, but the decision was already made. By writing this post I have made some enemies, and some friends. It was a thought out decision. Having some friends and some enemies here > going unnoticed/ignored by all. Basically, I have chosen my bjinfo clique. I am sorry we are in different ones!

If you'd done any reading whatsoever on the topic, for example the BC forum, you would have seen fairly quickly that there are plenty of posts on that board requesting information about the current availablity of the book which have gone unanswered. Now in any normal circumstance if i was to find that level of customer service on a product's forum i'd give it up as a bad idea. Given the nature of the information you were trying to obtain however, i don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to draw the conclusion that the author doesn't want to make it easy to get hold of his product any longer. Not to say that it's not available, simply that checks are going to be in place and a degree of persistence and patience is certainly going to be required.
THANK YOU so much for validating this topic. Now noobs like me won't be casually stopping by the website expecting to buy the product. Since I have posted this no one will have to draw conclusions, they will just know. If I had read a post like this before trying to buy the book, there is a greater chance I would have been successful. Now future potential customers will know.

To now come on the board crying simply because you didn't get what you want, it's not particularly useful and certainly isn't going to help your case. Perhaps, rather than stewing on the issue for days at a time you should try and learn a lesson from this experience......
RJT.
Not crying, sharing an experience with an internet vendor that potential customers will no doubt find useful. I can think of no better use of the internet (well, maybe porn.)
 

apex

Well-Known Member
#19
iCountNTrack said:
I have cleaned the thread as much as I can. Please note that posting PMs are against forum rules.

APEX, i think Ken has given you the best answer

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=212569&postcount=2

I think you are just being impatient and/or too dependent on others. If you are really serious about the game and can't wait, do your own research, learn how to analyze card games on your own, often times you can get the answer with just a pencil and paper (a big one sometimes), learn how to program, you can ask a friend who is a programmer to give you a hand, or write the entire code for you.
It is true I have been a bit impatient and have pushed the limits of the forum rules. This is because I found a great situation, that from what I have read is rare and doesn't always last long. I just want to make hay while the sun shines.

I have asked many questions. Some of them have been answered, and I thank all of those who have sent me friendly replies. I have also spent many hours doing my best to figure this out myself, and have put in dozens of hours of play. Each day I get closer to the correct answer. The process has been rewarding and the game has been going great!

Again, thanks to those who have been friendly. I will share info with you in the future. I will even share the location of this excellent game as soon as I get barred. To those I offended, I am sorry. To those looking for this information in the future, PM me. I will be happy to point you in the right direction as many have done for me.

*Note: The mods have edited my first post to the point that it no longer makes much sense*
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#20
apex said:
My major complaint is that a product is listed as "for sale" but it really isn't, at least not in the normal sense.
apex said:
I posted asking why some subjects are allowed to be discussed, and some arent.

Just not getting it are you? You need to start thinking for yourself. It really should take little to no reading at all for you to have learned enough to know that the community is secretive and information is a highly valued commodity. It should have taken little to no reading to find out that others were having difficulty getting hold of the book. Both of the issues above need never have been issues if you'd put any though into the matter at all.


apex said:
Yes, I posted a PM. Maybe I shouldn't have done it. I feel that in this case it wasn't really a PM. It was a business inquiry that should have happened through e-mail.
No you shouldn't have. That's just standard internet forum etiquette. If it had been meant to be treated as anything else other than a PRIVATE message, it would have happened through email. In fact, even posting emails is a bit out of order. These are all forms of private communication. Not that your PM really revealed anything except your willingness to ignore what are at the very least unspoken rules.


apex said:
THANK YOU so much for validating this topic. Now noobs like me won't be casually stopping by the website expecting to buy the product.
You seem to be the exception rather than the rule here - i doubt very many if any other people casually try to buy this product. It's marketed as a serious resource for serious players, is only available from one source and has a price tag that would put all but the seriously minded off. Such being the case, all your experience seems to prove is your own lack of patience and decorum.

On top of this, you choose to post this critique to 'help the noobs' not on the product forum, but here? Really the 'casual' buyer is far more likely to look on the product forum than trawl through other sites on the subject matter. What you're really doing is wanting to moan cause you didn't get the book and are worried that the product forum - rightly so - wouldn't pay any attention to your complaint.

RJT.
 
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