Pivot point, counting point and 'off the top' advantage

Mixx

New Member
#1
My system of choice when it comes to counting is the Zen system. I know that my counting point is zero, pivot point is zero the "off the top" advantage for the house is close zero in SD games. But when it comes to multi-deck games, I'm confused.

I know the 'off the top' advantage is -1/2 so you have to take that into consideration when finding your True Edge. If your TE is 2, you have to subtract .5 from that because of the pivot point.... But is this just for betting purposes that you subtract the .5 or does that encompass insurance and playing each hand?

Example:

Let's say you are playing a 4D game, you've got 2 1/2 decks left and RC is a 10. So your TE would be 10/(2.5*4); 10/10. TE=1. Now my question is, let's say you had a 19 and the dealers up card was an Ace. According to Zen indices, if your TE is 1+, take insurance. Would I take my TE and subtract .5 since the pivot point is -.5 and NOT take the insurance since my TE would only be 1/2. OR: do I NOT subtract the .5 since it's only for betting and take the insurance bet?

This has been confusing me for awhile now and would love it if someone could clear it up. Thanks in advance guys.
 

Mixx

New Member
#2
Come on guys.... 25 views and not one person knows if the pivot point in a multideck game using Zen is just for betting or for all betting and playing decisions?
 

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#3
The off-top advantage has no relevance, as long as you are using the correct indices for the game rules (multiple-deck, DAS, S17/H17, ENHC).
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#4
iCountNTrack said:
The off-top advantage has no relevance, as long as you are using the correct indices for the game rules (multiple-deck, DAS, S17/H17, ENHC).
Agree. Off the top advantage is not particularly meaningful, and not even correctly published in nearly all books. Forget TE and bet optimally.
 

Mixx

New Member
#5
Thanks for the reply guys.

Now QFIT, you said to forget true edge and bet optimally. What did you mean by that? Use true count instead or go to an unbalanced system such Red 7 or KO to nullify the need for any conversion what so ever?

Since I became interested in zen many people have told me to get Blackbelt in Blackjack by Snyder. From what I read in the latest edition of that book was that true edge was easier to use than true count, and I agree with that. However I was not aware that TE effects betting optimization, how does it do this?
 

Brock Windsor

Well-Known Member
#6
A rough estimation is that your 'True Edge' is half of the True Count (ie True Edge of 2 = a True Count of 4) This conforms to the notion that each one point rise in true count increases your advantage by half a percentage point. Using the system as published is fine, True Edge is your increase in advantage from the off the top disadvantage (traditionally near -0.5%), it matters not what rules you are facing. In your first example you would TAKE INSURANCE as that is the optimal play for the system, though in actuality this is a near coin flip and a True Edge of 1.4 is a more definite advantage with the insurance bet. Ignore off the top rules for play decisions so long as you are playing a 3:2 BJ game where ties push. (There are a couple index variations for H17 vs S17 that may be of use, but again we are splitting hairs.)
BW
 

Mixx

New Member
#7
Brock Windsor said:
A rough estimation is that your 'True Edge' is half of the True Count (ie True Edge of 2 = a True Count of 4) This conforms to the notion that each one point rise in true count increases your advantage by half a percentage point. Using the system as published is fine, True Edge is your increase in advantage from the off the top disadvantage (traditionally near -0.5%), it matters not what rules you are facing. In your first example you would TAKE INSURANCE as that is the optimal play for the system, though in actuality this is a near coin flip and a True Edge of 1.4 is a more definite advantage with the insurance bet. Ignore off the top rules for play decisions so long as you are playing a 3:2 BJ game where ties push. (There are a couple index variations for H17 vs S17 that may be of use, but again we are splitting hairs.)
BW
Thank you Brock, that really helped me out.

But this raises another question from me... You are saying if I am using the system correctly and using true edge, that is a legit strategy. But QFIT was saying to ignore true edge conversion and bet optimally.... Is this just a matter of opinion or is there some math behind it that I am not aware proves or disproves BC using Zen TC vs. BC using Zen TE?
 

SleightOfHand

Well-Known Member
#8
Mixx said:
Thank you Brock, that really helped me out.

But this raises another question from me... You are saying if I am using the system correctly and using true edge, that is a legit strategy. But QFIT was saying to ignore true edge conversion and bet optimally.... Is this just a matter of opinion or is there some math behind it that I am not aware proves or disproves BC using Zen TC vs. BC using Zen TE?
Using true edge is different from true count in the sense that it is a lot less precise for the same amount of work (If not a tad more). The true count will give you both better betting and playing decisions as it is not extremely rounded
 

Mixx

New Member
#9
SleightOfHand said:
Using true edge is different from true count in the sense that it is a lot less precise for the same amount of work (If not a tad more). The true count will give you both better betting and playing decisions as it is not extremely rounded
Ok then. Using Zen with TC conversion, what is better/more practical: RC/half decks remaining or RC/full decks remaining? And where can I get my hands on Zen indices with using TC? The charts I have are TE charts.
 
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