Not playing for comps in Vegas

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#1
For the past 3 years since I moved to green/black level I have played mostly unrated. Back in AC, I would play rated sparingly, just enough to get comped rooms and some food comps. When I moved west, I went to almost total anonymous play. Since I lived in Vegas, I didn't need comped rooms and quite frankly as a player moving from east to west, was a little concerned about barrings and backoffs.

Discussions of the topic in several different threads here and a few private discussions, including one member who was very adamant that I was leaving money on the table by playing unrated convinced me to give playing rated a try, so for the last 6 months I have played rated some. I couldn't bring myself to do so at a few of my favorite locations that I play most frequently, especially one of the bigger chains in the city for obvious reasons.

So after 6 months, here is my conclution: It's not for me. Not at my level and my style of play. I think if you are playing big bucks, spreading black to purple and beyond, it might be worthwhile. Sounds like Dye and Moo do quite well with offers and Mr Lee counts offers as part of his EV. But at my level, spreading green to black and especially playing very short sessions as I do, my offers haven't been that good. I don't know if the casinos are cutting back on offers right now, or my style and level isn't that conducive to getting them. Yeah, I got some free plays and some match plays and a ton of free rooms, which as I stated, I don't have a lot of use for. And in exchange I feel like I gave up that anonymitity that has worked so well for me.

And anyone who tones down their play, like lower spread to accumulate comps is making a big mistake in my opinion. You would be better off playing full spread anonymously, and pay for your own rooms and/or meals, especially at a time when rooms are so freaking cheap.

I have a few small local places that I have to tone down my action anyway, simply because they won't accept my mid black action, so those are the places I will play rated a little bit just to get enough comps for a few meals. Places, like terribles, or the stations, or tuscany. Since these places have good $4 breakfast, which is my favorite meal, I don't need to earn much comps and I'm not risking anything. And If I am indeed leaving a little money on the table this way, well that's OK, because I will be welcome back to pick up that money on my next trip. :)
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#2
Impressed by Your Rationale

Good hearing from you, KJ. I've read through your remarks twice and can't help but notice that judgement is a strong point of your AP game. The importance of working comps into your EV is a debatable subject, and you've chosen to err on the side of being comfortable and prolonging your action in LV.

Keep getting that $$$. :joker:
 
#3
ChefJJ said:
Good hearing from you, KJ. The importance of working comps into your EV is a debatable subject, and you've chosen to err on the side of being comfortable and prolonging your action in LV.
I choose to err on the side of fine dining. zg

FREE FOOD
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#4
zengrifter said:
I choose to err on the side of fine dining. zg

FREE FOOD
Well again, Z, if you had to tone your spread and subsequently earnings down to get that "free food" then it isn't really free, you are in effect paying for it.

Don't forget that the comp process actually has you exposing yourself twice, once when playing and once when using the comp. Not worth it IMO.

I made this decision is the last couple weeks, but I must say this ID ruling yesterday only reinforces my decision. :sad:
 
#5
kewljason said:
Well again, Z, if you had to tone your spread and subsequently earnings down to get that "free food" then it isn't really free, you are in effect paying for it.

Don't forget that the comp process actually has you exposing yourself twice, once when playing and once when using the comp. Not worth it IMO.
I actually do not disagree.

At times that I have played continuously for weeks in Vegas I have felt very squeezed by exposure and would gladly forgo the comps to have a good playing venue.

Notwithstanding, I typically play for the full monty - the comps are important to my full-immersion engagement. zg

Ps - I rarely if ever tone my spread. A few cover bets, yes, but no reduction in spread.
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#7
Right on, KJ!

Were it not for the fact that playing as a refusal can bring its' own level of suspicion, I would NEVER, EVER get rated. My style of play, in which I almost always play minimum bets & have a teammate playing the money, I will get rated ONLY when the table minimum is high enough that it looks funny when I DON'T.

Unless your bankroll is small enough that the comps are a SIGNIFICANT addition to your BJ income; IMO the comps are just not worth it!
 

Youk

Active Member
#8
This idea of playing for comps can take on many tangents, which I have discovered over the past couple years. Here's a couple more things to consider:

- Playing for comps under a friend's card

- Trying to collect comps that are not mailers (e.g. asking for comps from players club or pit critters). Also, trying to collect comps that are not mailers off of your friend's card. :rolleyes: I've learned it's best just to let the friend collect the comps...

Other topics, such as maximizing your EV, % of EV it can add to the bankroll, risks of backoffs, and the cover used when being rated have all been discussed above. All these factors should be considered.

-Youk
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#9
Youk said:
- Playing for comps under a friend's card
VERY good idea - but bear in mind; the PCs sometimes will try to trick you by asking you your birth date or some other personal information. Make sure you have the correct answer!

Just the other day, the floor lady wished me "happy birthday"; I ALMOST blew it and ALMOST said "It's NOT my birthday". Luckily, I recovered in time to remember that according to my players card, it WAS! Whew! :laugh:
 
#10
Sucker said:
Were it not for the fact that playing as a refusal can bring its' own level of suspicion
Oh, and that too.
Sucker said:
Unless your bankroll is small enough that the comps are a SIGNIFICANT addition to your BJ income
Interesting that you are saying the opposite of KewlJ, on this regard. zg
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#11
zengrifter said:
Interesting that you are saying the opposite of KewlJ, on this regard. zg
Well, I am talking about folks like Dye and Moo that are getting offers that are worthwhile and maybe worth some risk of exposure. Also have had private conversations with a gent, who received rather expensive gifts worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars, as offers, and then he turns around and sells them on ebay. I, on the other hand, get an offer of 5 free shot glasses from stations casino. Not worth risking anything...:laugh:
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#12
kewljason said:
Well, I am talking about folks like Dye and Moo that are getting offers that are worthwhile and maybe worth some risk of exposure. Also have had private conversations with a gent, who received rather expensive gifts worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars, as offers, and then he turns around and sells them on ebay. I, on the other hand, get an offer of 5 free shot glasses from stations casino. Not worth risking anything...:laugh:
Station Casinos just sent me $250 in free slot play ($125 for the first half of May and $125 for the second half), $50 dinner offer, and 3X points for all slot and VP play thru 5/31. Seeing as I'll Vegas May 14. you will find me at Palace Station part of the time. BTW, as I recall, they are the only Station Casino with Late Surrender on their shoe games.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#13
aslan said:
Station Casinos just sent me $250 in free slot play ($125 for the first half of May and $125 for the second half), $50 dinner offer, and 3X points for all slot and VP play thru 5/31. Seeing as I'll Vegas May 14. you will find me at Palace Station part of the time. BTW, as I recall, they are the only Station Casino with Late Surrender on their shoe games.
Ok a couple questions then. 1.) How will you play each $125 free play. Will you play through one time and cash out what ever amount remains, or will you play it until it is either gone or you have hit something big, figuring it is free money? 2.) Could you share what kind of investment you made and what kind of games to get these offers?

I am sure you know where I am going with this. To be blunt, Aslan, the more I read your recent posts, the less like an AP you sound. From the way you talk about needing larger amounts in action for it to be exciting to for you, to the story you told of a player turning $300 buyin into $126,000. That type of thing is just a gambler's fantasy. I am not going to say it isn't possible. Almost anything is possible. But only a gambler would see that as such a great thing. And during the course of that story you talked about this same player jumping from the blackjack table and placing a single $100 a a number at the roulette wheel and winning 4 consecutive times. Pure fantasy and only a 'gambler' could be as excited to tell that story as you were.

You talk about needing to take a break because the swings have become sooo monsterous for you. I suspect part of that is because when you have winning days at the blackjack table, you lose a good portion of that money back playing what seems to be your poison, video poker. :sad: Therefore your winning days turn to break even days and your losing days, well they remaining losing days. Thats going to create some pretty big swings. In one direction.

You can justify your actions by saying you are a recreational player wanting to have fun and enjoy himself. Hey nothing wrong with that. It doesn't sound like you are spending money you don't have, so in that sense it isn't 'problem gambling'. So enjoy yourself. Just don't kid yourself into thinking your an AP.

I though one of the other guys would take this responsibility and tell you this, but none did. I thought that's where syph was going, but he didn't. So I'll be the bad guy. :p
 

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#15
I completely disagree on the "not worth it" part. I play typically multipel hands of ~150-200+ and in In ten days, I got comped 11 hotels (i double booked my last day) and two+ meals every day for free.

Considering casino food is almost always high end food, I would value my meals at an average of 35 dollars, If a hotel was valued at only 40 dollars assuming you could endure living in the cheapo motels, i raked in about 1100 dollars in free ****.

Thats over 100/day, and notibly, I had unspent comp dollars at many properties before i left.

I do agree about the risk factor, one thing I like to do is use my players card selectively, they can back up your time on the table if you give them a card AFTER you are done playing usually.

So you can play, assess the heat situation, and give them your card shortly before leaving the table. Definately worth while to at least own a card so that you cna get the free stuff like coupons, etc.
 
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aslan

Well-Known Member
#16
kewljason said:
Ok a couple questions then....So I'll be the bad guy. :p
Wow! Cool your heels, KewlJ.

I told the story about the fellow with the $400 buy-in winning $126,000 because it just happened this week and was the most astounding luck imaginable. I wasn't the only one who thought it was fantastic, the dealers, the pit bosses and all the surrounding players thought it was fantastic. It doesn't mean I am proposing that we should all go out and try to get lucky. That would be foolish. It was a fantastic run of luck, and if you can't appreciate that for what it is, I feel sorry for you. It's similar in a way to your own good fortune with your perfect shoe. It had nothing whatsoever to do with you; you just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and doing the things that all good card counters do. If people find your luck incredible, to experience a perfect shoe and win what was it, 487 units, they should also find the story about the fellow at the Borgata winning $126,000 amazing. No one on this Forum has ever won so many units in a single shoe. No one probably ever will.

I just reread your post and it seems you are saying I fabricated the story (fantasy is the word you used) about the 4 number hits at roulette. I am just reporting, others can decide. It was last Tuesday night in the wee hours of the morning (technically Wednesday morning) at the Borgata in the $25 - $50 pit on the end table closest to the cashier (which is around the corner), if you have any way to check it out. I was busy playing/counting, so I cannot say I witnessed this. It was eye witnesses, including the pit guy, who said the fellow won "4 or 5" consecutive numbers at $100 on the roulette while at the same time playing blackjack, and that he was eventually betting the table max at blackjack of $3,000. All I heard was the screaming and I thought that was the typical ploppy $10 win! I also heard the guy with the loudest deepest bass voice I ever heard yelling from the bj table. The pit said he cashed out $126,000 from a $400 buy in. Please, by all means check it out-- anyone.

Maybe I need larger amounts than $5 blackjack to make my day because with my income, savings and investments, winning $1,500 over a year's time of 300 hours play (part-time) is meaningless to me. And will I make $1,500 over that 300 hours if I count flawlessly? No, not unless that 300 hours constitutes the long run. I may even be down at the end of the year. All I know is that somewhere along the line I will reach the long run and be up $5 an hour. Or $10 an hour if playing a $10 min game.

Could you play either a $5 or a $10 game and nothing else? Would that be significant to you? The answer is no, because you would not be able to make a living at those rates. It would not be significant for you to win at those amounts. You could not meet your necessary expenses. In a somewhat similar way, playing at $5 and $10 as a steady diet is not significant to me. Not until I get to the $25 min do I feel I can win something meaningful in a year's time of part-time play. It could mean a nice cruise, or a weekend trip to Europe for my Wife and me. Still, I am not willing to dedicate $25,000 bankroll to this end. It is not that I cannot afford to do so, but that it does not mean enough for me to do so.

I am not "trying" to sound like an AP. I know exactly what I have to do if I choose to play as an AP. I have "AP knowledge." Until my last couple of trips, I played AP, four years worth. But it's losing its allure. I can see that playing AP at the $25 level will mean occasionally having a significant loss, say, $4,000 or $5,000. I can also tell from my experience that it is not far-fetched for two of these large losses to occur back to back or near back to back. I know this from the number of times that I have had my back to the wall betting recommended max bet amounts and just escaping by the skin of my teeth. Any AP on the Forum will tell you the same thing. It is not uncommon to lose big in a positive count, and it is even less uncommon to "almost" not recover from a looming session loss. But we usually pull out of these tailspins, and that keeps us coming back. Now, if one of these days I do lose two large ones, say $5,000 and $5,000, back to back in one year, I will count that a significant loss, more so, than even you would. The reason I say that is that I don't put in that many hours a year-- 200 or 300 hundred is all. It will take me much longer in calendar days to recover and get back on the winning side. So, from my vantage, card counting loses a lot of its luster. It's a risky business on a year by year basis simply because I don't put in the hours. That is what has been driving my obsession with finding ways to lower variance, even to the point of playing near break even games.

To answer your question about the 2 $125 slot plays I received, my typical procedure is to find a JOB 9/6 machine, or the nearest to it. I will play until I can cash out the entire $125, which is often the case on these machines, because they are so close to even money. I would then take my slot money and add it to my blackjack bankroll.

The only thing I have done at Station Casinos is play a lot of Blackjack and a little VP. I find pen at some Stations to be exceptional at times, and the shoe games susceptible to large spreads, more ideal for team play than single play IMO.

When I talk about what I win or lose at blackjack, I do not include what I win or lose at VP. That is entirely separate. If you think throwing a $100 at a 25 cent VP machine or a couple of $100 at a $1 VP machine is excessive, then you are very lucky that you have ever won at VP, which I recall you said you did. It wasn't a function of your reducing the amount you played at VP that caused you to win, it was just the luck of the draw. I generally only play VP machines 1) where the comps are good, such as at the Borgata, and 2) to relieve tension and clear my mind from playing blackjack. I have only once lost a sizable amount at VP (a couple of years ago on a $1 machine), but I have won a few jackpots and smaller amounts.

Lastly, I did not pretend to be playing AP in my latest session. I did try to play a barely +EV game, and was ready to extend to full AP if a good situation presented itself, but I was more intent on avoiding large session losses, which I know is not AP.

Since APs do not consider AP to be gambling, I find it appropriate to compare being an AP with having a job. My biggest AP decision in life was to get a college education which opened the door to me for a very good salary. I advise anyone on this Forum who has the brains and opportunity to seriously consider that life path, first and foremost, with blackjack a lesser avocation or hobby. The RoR is much lower, the income in all but rare cases much better, and the hours and other benefits beyond comparison.

I have played AP blackjack part-time for four years, with a couple of sessions like my last one, experimental. I reserve the right to play blackjack AP or non-AP as I choose. It may make no sense to you, but that is because you are doing this for a living and I am not. If I were to count cards for a living I would dedicate $100,000 to my bankroll, play $50 games with a $500 max bet, move from casino to casino, and play several days a week. $50 is the minimum I would play for. I know everyone cannot start at the level, but that's what it would be for me. But I am not interested in playing blackjack 40 hours a week. If I wanted more money I would return to work and make three times that.

I hope this clears the air. :)
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#17
The air didn't need clearing, aslan, my friend. I guess you are going through some sort of transition, where you are deciding exactly what you want to do and how you want to play and that's fine. Hope you come up with something that makes you happy. :) I am just saying, if you read through your recent posts in several different threads, they sound anything but that they are coming from a knowledgeable AP. :confused:

Your explanation of stations play, that you play mostly blackjack and just a little VP doesn't make all that much sense. You are claiming to have put $100 through a machine and they sent you $250 in free play? I do find that hard to beleive. I think you must be giving them more VP action than you realize or are admitting. :rolleyes:
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#18
kewljason said:
The air didn't need clearing, aslan, my friend. I guess you are going through some sort of transition, where you are deciding exactly what you want to do and how you want to play and that's fine. Hope you come up with something that makes you happy. :) I am just saying, if you read through your recent posts in several different threads, they sound anything but that they are coming from a knowledgeable AP. :confused:

Your explanation of stations play, that you play mostly blackjack and just a little VP doesn't make all that much sense. You are claiming to have put $100 through a machine and they sent you $250 in free play? I do find that hard to beleive. I think you must be giving them more VP action than you realize or are admitting. :rolleyes:
A couple of years ago I put a $1,000 in a $1 VP machine at Palace Station, but other than that lapse of sanity, I seldom even play VP at a station casino because I can't find 9/6 machines, but have put in tons of hours at blackjack there (Sante Fe, Boulder Station, Red Rock, Palace, Fiesta, Aliante, Green Valley, and Texas Station). I tend to play more in Vegas than anywhere else because I spend so many consecutive days there each year. However, last Fall, I only played 10 hours for a two week period. I think being a homeowner in Vegas may be changing my gaming habits. We'll see what happens this month, since I will be in Vegas sans Wife for the first eleven days. BTW, that VP loss at the Palace was the tipping point in my VP career. I have never pushed VP like that since. My attitude is that its okay to throw a hundred or two at it, but the big payoffs are all luck. Sometimes I win a small amount, $100 or $250 (four deuces at deuces wild), and quit, sometimes I play for a while and cash out even, and sometimes I drop the whole $100 or $200 in. Like I say, the comps are good (sometimes you can play forever on $100) and the break from blackjack is needed, although I should try the Borgata Spa-- I hear that's even better.

PS--I don't think this promotion is based on slot play alone, but I could be wrong. Usually when I get flyers, my friends get the same flyers, and I play a lot more blackjack than they do.
 
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#19
kewljason said:
Also have had private conversations with a gent, who received rather expensive gifts worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars, as offers, and then he turns around and sells them on ebay.
Cash conversion of comps is a good enhancement. The best cash conversion I ever pulled off was 5-comp tickets to Whitney and Bobby at the Aladdin grand-opening, sold-out, sold them out front of the show entrance for $150 each. zg
 
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