Dealer Tells

The mirror peepers don't covey any info about the hole card other than if it is a 10 (black spot) or non-10 (no black spot). There is no other info to be gained unless, as JMo says the dealer puts the cards in the wrong way (or in the case of the MGM type peeper pushes the wrong button). If the dealer is squinting with the mirror peepers it's only because he can't see the black spot not because he can't tell a 4 from an Ace. Now if you're talking about manual peeking all sorts of things come into play and there was a book written about it back in the 1970's called "Read the Dealer" by Steve Forte available on Amazon used for $942 eye opening dollars.

BP - What we are now talking about is what if the house uses the wrong cards?
Like for instance the extra large face easy to read cards? zg

Hate to rain on your parade, but...

Everyone knows I’m no “real” professional expert, but here’s what I think anyway.

First, we have the value of the tells generated by the dealer because of using the wrong cards.

Then we have to consider the likelihood of them using the wrong cards in the first place.

Then we have to think about how long this condition is going to persist, because the first time the dealer checks for BJ, she’s going to know something is wrong.

Taken all together, the value of dealer tells because of the wrong cards being used is probably .000000001.

And this number is a gross over-estimation.

Which is still many times more value than some other threads.

The game I had found has now switched to using typical blackjack cards so the hole card is no longer known to the dealer when checking for blackjack.
BW

I'm just going to explain in detail how they work so you understand. Clockwise cards have corners a b c and d. On a ten value card there will be black marks on corners A and D for example. (A and D are opposite diagonally accros the card. With the card facing upward the markings are visible on corners a and d. Now if you take another card with the same marking and flip it face down underneath the first one, even though it has the markings in the same place, because the card is rotated and upside down, the markings are now opposite the markings that are visible on top.

All ace value cards have markings on the opposite corners (B and C). However, when the card is flipped over the markings match up. So with a ten up, all the dealer does is orient the cards so the the visible marking is face up and inside the peaker, if another marking is visible then the dealer knows and ace is paired with a ten, or a ten is paired with an ace.

Since only cards ten and ace have markings the dealer won't know what they have if the don't see a marking.

The marking TYPICALLY is a black spot, however, sometimes the letter "A" or "K" or "Q" etc is offset into a region of the card not marked on cards othere than tens in their corresponding corners to serve as the marking, these may be the type of cards you have

You said earlier you own a felt, I can see that you also own that device to see the hole card that dealers use .. whoa - Or does it come with the felt :eyepatch:

Got to play a tell recently. Dice dealer was dealing blackjack, had a ten up, put the card in the reader wrong, saw a ten, and then realized he was looking for an ace. Switched it over and checked properly.

Since I knew he had hard twenty, I surrendered both of my stiffs which I would have hit.

Dealer tells? Technology has killed that edge...even small local joints no longer give the dealer any information except is it an ace. Foreign casinos also use the same technology as in the states. I am afraid that dealer tells are history. Anyone who knows different, I am very interested... a PM would be a nice belated Christmas gift.

There are situations that came up. Like I mentioned earlier, the dealer putting it in the wrong direction. I also played a game with a broken scanner awhile back.

You are telling me that they did not shut down the table???????????????

No.

AA and TT tell

Sweet! I'm glad I saw this thread, cause I was thinking about posting my own...

The other day I was playing an 8-deck S17 game with no LS at a local indian casino. After an hour or so I noticed the dealer check his hole with a 10 showing, and then he made a slight hand movement as if he were about to flip over his cards, but he quickly stopped himself and continued play. I had 20, but thought "Crap, he thought he had 21, so he's probably got 20 too." Sure enough, I pushed. A couple hands later with a new dealer I notice the same occurrance... I bust my 12 and the dealer had 20 again. I decided I would definately try to exploit the next time this happened. Later, the dealer's change again, and the new dealer recognizes one of the players as a regular, and they start to chat about sports as he deals... A couple hands into the shoe, he's in mid sentence as he checks his hole with a 10 up and he non-chalantly says "Aw dammit," and continues talking. I hit my 16 in a positive count and bust, but he did have the 20. Anyway, the first tell happened 3 more times before I left. I was right 100% of the time about the dealer having 20 six times in about six hours. I wasn't able to properly take advantage of it, but at least I made $500

The next day I got to thinking, and decided it might be worth it to try and better exploit the tell at a different casino. I ran some sims for the 8deck H17 DA2 DAS RSA LS game I previously avoided, and decided the other game was still better, but it would be fun to try it out.

When I get to the other casino, I soon find that the game is actually 6 decks, and the pen was WAY better than I had imagined. Anyway, the dealers were slower and seemingly more careful, and only one time I noticed the "tell" and I turned out to be wrong. Dealer checked his hole with a ten up, and did this double-karate-chop motion over the cards, then looked up and crisply said "OK." I really wasn't too certain this time if that was the sign I had been looking for or not, but I had a soft 16 and the count was slightly negative... I decided to play it out. I hit and take a 10, then an ace... I hesitate, then signal to hit again... With only a slight double take, the dealer gives me a 5. "Aww, one to many, huh?" I say. The rest of the table is completely silent. The next 2 players wave their hands, then the dealer flips a 5 for his hole card, and follows up with an 8. The table rejoiced and thanked me for "taking one for the team" (I'd hate to think what would have happened if I took the 8 instead?). So, I made a cover play at no cost to me... But I was still disapointed that I was wrong. I dried my tears with an extra $370 that I made in the 2 hours :eyepatch:

So now I'm 6 for 7... Chance? At least some, but I'm pretty confident it's not just "noise". I'm gonna be mostly playing the H17 game with LS now, so I wonder, if I ever see this tell again, and am confident that the dealer has 20, what hands would you not surrender?

If it were truly a tell, to what do you attribute the cause? Was it a broken peeker or the wrong cards? Do you think these mistakes applied to both games and in different casinos? If the dealer put the cards in the peeker the wrong way, then did he miss any blackjacks, since he would not be able to see the ace when putting the card in the wrong way?

Try this on for size: when the dealer already has a ten showing, he has close to one chance in three of getting another ten. Or look at it this way: how many times have you seen the dealer consistently get a twenty on his first two cards. I'll bet sometimes it seems like he doesn't get anything but tens!

I think you're headed for disaster if you think you are observing dealer tells.

Don't hit the hard seventeen.

And, aslan, he COULD be observing tells. It's important to know where the mark is on the card, and whether the dealer is using the scanner improperly.

I'd guess if you could tell when the dealer has hard twenty up with a 10 showing, it would be worth around 1% to a reasonable player. If you're willing to go wheelchair on it and hit hard totals above 17 or soft 19, it could be worth much more. But I don't recommend that...

It would be worth somewhat more with surrender.

Well I know that "7" is not the largest sample size

But the feeling I had at the first casino was unmistakeable... It's like the dealer knew he "almost" f'd up, and caught himself just in time. The "Aw, dammit" situation was unbelievable too... I didn't know if the dealer was purposely trying to inform his friend (who didn't act on it), or if he really didn't know he even said it. He had no reason to say that otherwise, it didn't fit in with his conversation.

I don't really know how the mirrors work, and I haven't noticed the black corners on the tens, but I haven't been looking thus far... I've only been counting "for realz" for a little over 6 months, and I thought that I discovered something new.

I will hit up both casinos this weekend and pay more attention to the details. I know that they use different sets of cards, but that's all I know so far. If it turns out that they can see the cards or at least know when they have a 10 or A in the hole, I guess I won't make absurd decisions based on the tell... You have to get the tell (rare), correctly read the tell (not 100% accurate), and have a hand where you would deviate from your normal strategy without drawing too much attention, in order to take advantage. I think that most likely it wouldn't be worth it to play at the first casino over the second, even if it turns out that the first casino is the only one where I see a real tell.

Thanks for your responses

Two different casinos back to back and the same tell-- same improper use of scanner-- and he talks as if he expected the second casino to have the same situation? I'll let you calculate the odds. Unless I'm missing something obvious, there's no way.

Maybe, just the first one was an improper use of scanner, but if so, when the dealer goes to check for a ten, he won't see anything unless there's an ace, and that should tell you that it is an improper use of scanner. Or if he does both ace and ten the same way, then he should be missing blackjack calls when the ace is in the hole. Also, many dealers like to pretend they have the ace, but then at the last second, deal -- some are obvious about this little "joke" of theirs and some are not. It can make you think they thought they saw something. I just wouldn't get excited over six in a row. I think I have that beat by twenty or more lots of times.:laugh:

voodoo

voodoo

Perhaps voodoo...

Well I hit up both casinos last night and paid some attention to detail...

I believe that if I was observing a tell, than it is due to the dealer putting the cards into the peeker the wrong way. After seeing the cards, I realize that this is the only possible way I could gain any information on the dealer's hand. Also, I was wrong about the casinos using different cards... They use the exact same ones, even the backs of the cards are identical. I noticed that the size of the number/letter on the 10-valued cards were larger than the size of the numbers on the smaller valued cards, and that the location of the symbol was in the upper-leftmost amd bottom-rightmost spots on the cards... On the < 10 valued cards, the value of the card was located in the same area but printed slightly closer to the center of the card such that no matter how the card is oriented in the peeker, it wouldn't be visible... The aces had their symbol printed on all four corners of the cards; however, on the upper-right, and bottom-left of the cards the "A" is larger and printed closer to the corner of the card. When the dealer had a 10 up he would place the cards into the peeker "vertically" such that the top-right or bottom-left corner of the hole card can be seen when it is upside down (hence an ace would be visible but nothing else)... If he had an ace up he would place the cards "horizontally" so that the symbol of a ten card can be seen through the peeker, yet nothing else.

I didn't notice any mistakes last night when it came to the dealer checking the hole card at either casino, but I only played through 2 shoes at the first casino where as I played about 5 hours at the second one. Also, I can't remember how the dealer checked his cards when I thought I was noticing things last week... I didn't know to look for it then. I do remember an instance at casino #2 a few months ago where the dealer did miss a blackjack. I was playing heads up against him, had my max bets out, and I doubled down an 11 vs his 10 only to find that he already had a natural! He said "whoops" and quickly threw my cards into the discard tray AND tried to take my money including the double!!! I said "whoa buddy, I doubled on that!" and when the PC came over I at least got my double back (probably should have raised a stink about the cards being screwed up too?) Anyway, I don't remember if he checked his hole wrong or just forgot to check at all.

So basically, you guys were right and I'm sorry I can't remember jack... I guess all I can do now is keep my eyes open, and if I see a reaction I now know to note how the dealer checked his cards.