How do you play?

[natdm]

Hey, guys. I made a thread earlier about how I won then lost horribly overbetting in Vegas, which was the obvious outcome. I'm determined to NOT go back till' I'm much better with a bankroll much higher than 1200.

I'm reading tons of threads about guys that ask how to count or talk about how they know when to get in and out of a shoe according to count and etc. How many people perfect strategy beyond basic strategy and TC? I'm reading Blackjack for Blood, read Professional Blackjack and skimmed through Beat The Dealer. I've got the charts decently down to pat from Professional Blackjack and I'm waiting till' I can get through each chart (written on flashcards as [10 v 11] on one side and [double on -4 or higher] on the other side) in under half a second for each card till' I go back to Vegas. There's places in AZ to practice before I do that.

How many other people here go in to casinos with JUST running/true count knowledge? It seems like over 80% of the people here. Like most of the posts I see seem to be from people that learned how to count a deck of cards in a 'reasonable amount of time' and go to casinos. How well does that work if you have a correct bankroll? It seems like you could still make money doing that, but just much more by knowing when the opportune times are to split, double, insure, etc. Am I right?

[blackjack avenger]

One must have these first 3 steps:

Counting Accurately
Basic Strategy
Bankroll management

If you are incompetent in these basics you can run into a lot of trouble.

Next level, though also important
Indices

Some will say camoflauge is very important others will value it less.

Experience and Study will help you improve in the above and other techniques over time.

[nc-tom]

natdm good advice from ba but i would list the steps in this order. bankroll management, perfect BS, counting accurately.As far as winning if you are playing with an edge over time you will probably come out ahead. if your not playing with an edge you probably wont. the longer you play the more likely your results will revert to the mean.the math based on your level of play will over time show itself.

[sagefr0g]

Originally Posted by blackjack avenger

One must have these first 3 steps:

Counting Accurately
Basic Strategy
Bankroll management

If you are incompetent in these basics you can run into a lot of trouble.

Next level, though also important
Indices

Some will say camoflauge is very important others will value it less.

Experience and Study will help you improve in the above and other techniques over time.

wherein that bankroll management properly correlated to the count/advantage comes properly sized bets.

[blackjack avenger]

Originally Posted by sagefr0g

wherein that bankroll management properly correlated to the count/advantage comes properly sized bets.

yep

[natdm]

I know all that, but thanks. You don't read all of Professional Blackjack without getting all that pounded into your head over and over and over. Basic Strategy is tattooed in my head and it's not coming out. And Bankroll management is there, too. Just the actual bankroll isn't (yet). Counting is very easy for me to do without studying the cards too hard at all. I can count through a 4 deck shoe at maybe 2-3 cards a second and predict the last one or two cards (as in, high card, low card or neutral) just fine. And I can count aces separately with two decks fine as well, not that it matters with the count that I'm using. Just something to do for kicks.

I was just curious as to if people memorize more of the charts than Basic Strategy. It seems like there's a much greater edge with the charts given in a few books like Beat the Dealer and Professional Blackjack and Blackjack for Blood than Basic Strategy. Seems like you might actually play at a disadvantage with Basic Strategy all the way with a count of something like +4tc. I'm just wondering if anyone else goes all out like I'm doing and memorizes all the necessary charts. Like on your list, "basic strategy, counting and bankroll"... not "basic strategy, counting, bankroll and advanced strategy" at all?

[blackjack avenger]

Originally Posted by natdm

I know all that, but thanks. You don't read all of Professional Blackjack without getting all that pounded into your head over and over and over. Basic Strategy is tattooed in my head and it's not coming out. And Bankroll management is there, too. Just the actual bankroll isn't (yet). Counting is very easy for me to do without studying the cards too hard at all. I can count through a 4 deck shoe at maybe 2-3 cards a second and predict the last one or two cards (as in, high card, low card or neutral) just fine. And I can count aces separately with two decks fine as well, not that it matters with the count that I'm using. Just something to do for kicks.

I was just curious as to if people memorize more of the charts than Basic Strategy. It seems like there's a much greater edge with the charts given in a few books like Beat the Dealer and Professional Blackjack and Blackjack for Blood than Basic Strategy. Seems like you might actually play at a disadvantage with Basic Strategy all the way with a count of something like +4tc. I'm just wondering if anyone else goes all out like I'm doing and memorizes all the necessary charts. Like on your list, "basic strategy, counting and bankroll"... not "basic strategy, counting, bankroll and advanced strategy" at all?

Wong talks about indices, I mentioned them above. He makes recommendations in his book -1 to +6. He tells you the value of what he recommends. He indicates how much it is worth to learn them all.

If you want to learn a few more in this order:

positive hit/stand player 8 when dealer has a 10
positive hit/stand, double decisions up to +10
positive hit/stand, double decisions beyond +10 - probably don't bother
positve soft double- probably don't bother
positive split - probably don't bother
negative below -1 - probably don't bother

As you learn more indices you face diminishing returns, especially in shoe games.

[natdm]

Are you saying if I use too many of them, my edge decreases a bit, with diminishing returns?

[blackjack avenger]

The first group increases quite a bit to your win (-1 to +6). That is why they are recommended.

As you move further down the list they add smaller and smaller amounts to your win, there value decreses greatly. This is why Wong states learning more is optional because they are not woth much.

[natdm]

Gotcha, thanks. It makes sense.